[LKoonce]

Mackenzie wrote that when playing the 14th at St. Andrews, Bobby Jones would deliberately play his second shot over the green, leaving himself an uphill bump and run to the hole.

Now, I know that there are occasions when playing a long iron into a green that slopes front to back that I've anticipated that my ball would not hold the green, but that's a bit different from strategic positioning behind the green.  Anyone care to suggest holes they've played where this was the smart play or at least a serious option?

[George Pazin]

I spoke to a couple players and members at the US Amateur this year at Oakmont who said that on #10, you're better off making your mistake long. Someone (I think JohnV) even told me a story about Vijay practicing chip shots from past the 10th green during the practice rounds for the 94 Open.

Wry Stories on the Road Hole shares several anecdotes about golfers playing the Road Hole intentionally in a manner similar to how you say Jones played the 14th.

[TEPaul]

L koonce:

To expand on what George Pazin just said about Oakmont and playing over the green on hole #10, I should offer this very interesting and very true story regarding Ben Hogan's strategy at Oakmont's 1st and 10th hole when he won the US Open there.

It was noticed that in every round Hogan played his approach shot over both #1 and #10 greens. When Hogan was asked if he knew that or why he may have done that he said;

"I did that intentionally because I'd rather be over both those greens on my second shot rather than my third shot!"

[Mike Hendren]

My home course has a par four that requires a 140-160 yards approach to a side green that is open and deep on the right, but extremely narrow on the left and fronted by a bunker with a built-up lip.  The green behind the lip runs downhill to the hole.  No way to get up and down out of the bunker.  

There is fairway beyond the green on that side.  I always take an extra club to be long.  The pitch back can be played with any club, as the shot is braked by the back (greenside) of the bunker which is shaved closely.  The ball runs up that slope then feeds back to the hole, from almost any direction.  

Few people see this shot and always marvel as my ball returns to the hole for a tap in.  

Perhaps Tom Paul would call this the anti-turbo-boost / turbo-boost combo

Mike

[stovepipe]

My tupence worth.  Playing whilst on holiday in Kent back in 81, i played in a British Open qualifier at North Foreland G.C.

It seemed clear to me then that it was better to be just off the green than on it, some of the putts around there are things that nightmares are made of, it was advantagous to perposely miss the green, to leave an easier 3rd shot.

By the way, I didnt qualify, and I dont think i would have beat Bill Rogers anyway.

[Mike Benham]

Disclaimer:  This opinion is based on never playing or seeing the hole live, only via the telly (and countless magazine photos) ...

#13 at Augusta ... short in the creek is no good so why not play the approach shot, assuming a mid to long iron, with the assumption of missing long?  Or long and left?  (But not in the bunkers).

With the ability of the modern day pro to chip and putt, a shot over the green eliminates the bogey or double-bogey, just about eliminates the eagle chance but makes birdie a more than 50% possibility with a par all but certain ... (and those bunkers are worthless ...)

[Mike Hendren]

Mike,

The bunker's behind ANGC's 13th are no more worthless than those behind the 13th at CPC  I am not above enjoying a little eye-candy now and then.  

Jack's little ditch (hmm - I saw one just like it long and left of the 15th green at Shoal Creek) is another story altogether.  

Regards,

Mike

[Patrick_Mucci]

# 7 at NGLA

[Mike Benham]

I am not above enjoying a little eye-candy now and then.  

Removal of the bunkers would allow for more azaleas, dogwoods and pine straw ...  

[A_Clay_Man]

On the old nine at Riverview, the greens are all circular and they are all very subtle, almost Ross-like. One of the strategies I have concocted is when approaching a front pin position NOT to play to front yardage but rather center. This isn't airmailing the green but the flag intentionally. Obviously the fact that an easier up and down is reason to play towards anywhere. Hit'em to where you can make'em.

[LKoonce]

So, for those holes that have been mentioned, is there a design strategy inherent in the availability of shots from behind the hole, or are these simply new lines of attack that smart golfers have figured out over time?  Better yet, SHOULD course architects designing new courses have those potential approach angles in mind?   I guess what I'm asking is, is our collective mindset so firmly tee-to-green that attacking a green from the other side should only be accidental or rare, or should it be an option more often?

I know that there are other considerations, too -- such as the safety of golfers moving to the next tee box -- but surely these can be overcome.  It just seems to me that it might enrich the game if more holes allowed golfers to make this mentally difficult choice...

[Doug Siebert]

Interesting thread!

I had to give it some thought, but I guess my home course does allow one to go long on #9 without too big of a problem (so long as you aren't more than 15 yards long, then you'll be bouncing among the carts next to the clubhouse)  Everything else ranges from very bad to you're fucked to lost ball/unplayable/water.

Interesting how that focuses one's strategy, I very rarely will try to play it all the way back to a back pin, but I think nothing of going at a tucked front pin.  Even a deep bunker is an easier play than coming from behind the green there.  There's also a few holes where the terrain (some natural, some man-made) causes a shot even with the middle or back middle of the green but missed a few feet left to turbo boost into double bogey territory.  Our 14th is wonderful for this strategy, given the extreme slope of the green surface and the penalty for missing left shooting at a pin past the center.  When the pin is cut back left you either play it out right and risk a three putt or try to draw it in and get it rolling toward the hole.  You definitely don't shoot right at it unless you have a ball handy to reload.  Most visitors don't notice it, but after you see what happens you don't forget.  Unless you're a slicer, I guess.

As a result, I don't think I'd mentally consider playing long, certainly not unless I'd played the hole several times and missed in all available locations for comparison -- unless someone clued me in beforehand.  There is one new course in the area with a wicked approach to a wicked green that I figured was easier to miss long (because missing short means you roll back 50 yards!)  But it turned out that's not any easier, especially since you can't risk being long chipping back since playing your 4th from 50 yards down the hill would really suck!

[TEPaul]

This is an intersting subject but one talked about on here in length but maybe three years ago. I posted a thread once called the "Playback hole" or something like that where the concept was that the high risk shot would be to hit the green but the safer shot would be to play past the green somehow and come back at it.

As I recall it seems the best type of hole for something like that would be a short par 5 or a potentially driveable par 4. I thought of this subject in the first place when leaving one of the greens at Longue Vue G.C. in Pittsburgh on my way to the next tee. When I looked back at the green it seemed like one that would be interesting to try to hit from the opposite direction but actually a safer play might have been to play past it and come back at it.

Some holes I can think of that wouldn't exactly include airmailing the green intentionally but certainly would include trying to miss long would be NGLA's #7 (Road Hole). Even when we were last out there looking at it we started talking about what it would be like if there was some fairway long and left behind that green for this very purpose.

And I know that in his earlier years Jack Nicklaus was so into trying to encourage handicap players to use enough club---something he thought they rarely did---he started designing holes where all the trouble was in front and all the safe area was behind the green!

[JBStansell]

I seem to recall that George Thomas wrote in Architecture in America that a good hole does not penalize a long hitter for playing past the hole any more (or any less, I suppose) than it penalizes a short hitter for playing short of the hole.  I took this to mean that sometimes a good hole will have some "fairway" on the backside of the green for a return shot.  Having said that, I can't recall ever playing such a hole.  

[LKoonce]

TEPaul:

Thanks for the "history lesson", and sorry for posting an old topic -- I actually thought that it might have been raised before, and did a search to see if I could find an old thread, but didn't find anything.  Which is either testament to the fact that it was prior to the new board, or that I don't know how to put together a proper search!

[TEPaul]

"I took this to mean that sometimes a good hole will have some "fairway" on the backside of the green for a return shot.  Having said that, I can't recall ever playing such a hole.  

Joe:

Go play Shinnecock, it's on a whole bunch of holes.

[A_Clay_Man]

Joe- There are many holes with fairgreen beyond also know as chipping areas. The most utilized one I know of is behind 14 at Pebble.

[blasbe1]

On the 10th (short 4 par) at my home course (Seawane) it's much better to be long in the chipping area than short in the pot bunkers.  We renovated the hole last year and it used to be better to be short than long so it's been difficult to get your mind set right for the approach.    

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