News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Gib_Papazian

Re: USGA Women's Open to new venues
« Reply #50 on: January 09, 2022, 01:10:03 PM »
In this era of insanity and rudderless upheaval, I will be more interested to see if these sponsorships continue after this invented, prefab revolution fizzles out. 


Wake me up when an American girl hits the cover of S.I. . . . . . . swimsuit or not.   ;-)
« Last Edit: January 09, 2022, 01:11:46 PM by Gib Papazian »


Joe_Tucholski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: USGA Women's Open to new venues
« Reply #52 on: January 09, 2022, 07:43:02 PM »
Growth of the global game? Sure you are 100% correct . . . . diminutive South Korea and Sweden know how to produce top-flight talent by the truckload and China is about a 1/2 step behind.


My observations, from living in South Korea, is the popularity of the sport there for women is because of the social norms.  South Korea is a bit like I figure the US was in the 50's.  My observation is many women are limited in what they are able to pursue.  Golf is an acceptable activity for women in South Korea.

Three pages of the thread and no mention of the back to back US Open returning to Pinehurst in 2029.  We were at the 2014 back to back and thought it was great.

Bruce Katona

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: USGA Women's Open to new venues
« Reply #53 on: January 10, 2022, 01:29:35 PM »
Phil Burr & TD:

Back on page 1 of this discussion, you both asked if there were any public venues where somewhere close to 50% of the play is women.  About 10-15 minutes from casa Katona is a public venue where this may be the case - Pinch Brook, which is owned by the Morris County Park Commission.


The course is 4,995 yards, par 65, flat and easily walkable with 2 Par 5's, 7 par 4's and 9 par 3's. I enjoy getting out there to play a few times a year as the greens are small and you can work on your approch and short game there.  Its a great place to bring beginninig players and a good place fo the Mrs. and I to play together.


The down side is exactly the above - pace of play is slow for a stronger player.  I have walked and finished in 2.5 hours playing mid-week.


There are lots of couples, women's leagues, etc playing at Pinch Brook since the course isn't overwhelmingly long or penal. This is the canvass for increasing beginning play. I think that if there was enough room to stretch it back to 6,000 yards from the back tees, it would be a great public test for the better player.


How to get the other 50% of the population interested in golf?  As the dad of a 24 year old daughter, who has a beautiful tight little draw and repeating swing which many of you would kill for from all the years of playing field hockey.  She enjoys getting out to play with me on occasion.  We did the new TopGolf type facility in local restaurant when she was home over the holiday and had fun for 90 minutes.  We'll play 9 holes as a family (Mrs K plays as well)when we're on vacation.


Re-read what I wrote above......the time frame where the 24 year old & wife had interest in golf is 2 hours.  Mix together food, clothes, accessories, 2 hours or les to play and a fun place to play and you begin to get market penatration. IMHO

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: USGA Women's Open to new venues
« Reply #54 on: January 10, 2022, 03:26:33 PM »
Bruce,


  Spot on. Time matters. I think a 9-12 hole course would be ideal for attracting aspiring women's play. We see that via requests for 9-hole rounds being popular amongst ladies.


  Hope you had a good time at your Top Golf restaurant venue. If it was on the Morristown Green, that was my deal a while back and is now looking for expansion opportunities. FWIW, the ladies who are renting the bays are loving it!
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Gib_Papazian

Re: USGA Women's Open to new venues New
« Reply #55 on: January 15, 2022, 02:21:14 PM »
Bruce, I think you're on the right track here - TIME seems to be a huge factor in determining women's recreation choices.


I've never seen a women's BB pickup game on the local courts - and certainly not at my health club - but tennis is like a magnet for older athletic women. And - whether playing singles or doubles - all seem to play for around *two hours.*


Nearly every club in the San Joaquin valley has full tee sheets for the weekly "Ladies Nine Holer" - but I don't see many groups making the turn and continuing on.


My observation is women tend to do things in organized groups - tennis, luncheons and I can hear the power walk/joggers coming down the block, all chatting at once, morning and evening.


But once they hit around 50 - even the jock chicks start to wear knee and elbow braces because tennis is hard on your joints. If golf is going to grow, poaching healthy, athletic wifeys off the courts and onto the first tee seems a prime target demographic.


Gotta say I have been impressed with the number of women who get together at Topgolf - maybe this is the "gateway drug" we've been looking for. 


If we just nudge a paradigm shift away from "full sized, 18-hole courses," we'd gather up a lot of gals who otherwise find golf intimidating. And let's face it - said the aging guy, gimping around with a laundry list of broken parts - reprising something like Women's National GC is equally suited to older gentlemen and juniors.


When Neal and I were scratching out different green complex ideas, my first thought was invariably "Okay, how does my Dad or Mrs. Havershire (that was a name I made up one day) going to play this hole?"


Putting the obvious issues of drainage aside, sharply elevated greens - especially ones bunkered to require an aerial approach - eliminates half the women and seniors. In response to a column some years ago, the Lady Captain at Musselburgh hand wrote me a letter that touched upon - amongst other things - her lament that golf courses in America are largely too long and too hard to be enjoyable for women.


Kind of shocking, but I also received an unsolicited note from Michael Bonallack, making similar points. Still not sure how my piece got from the San Mateo Times/ANG Newsgroup to the Kingdom of Fife, but that is another story.


Most women are playing what amounts to a different game than men. That wedge or 9-iron I (used to) zip over the front bunkers is a 7-iron or more for Dad and Mrs. Havershire's group - and the balls don't bite, so into the back bunker or down the slope they go - leaving a downhill chip over and over and over until tennis starts to look good again.


Unless it is Laura Davies, the fairer sex don't carve rabbit pelts with their irons after age 50, so step #1 might not be figuring out where to put the women/senior tees, but how to leave a doable path to run the ball onto the putting surface. Fairways that seamlessly blend into the green - or the fun of playing to a punchbowl - seems a good start.


If I had my way, there would be no "rough" on any golf course - so dial back the maintenance expectation (budget) and give everybody some width to work with. It would speed up play, that is for sure - and eliminate one of the main reasons golf can be discouraging and frustrating for our target demographic  . . . . . luring girls off the courts and through golf's turnstiles.


You also don't need 125 acres to build a downsized, nine hole golf course. I remember playing behind two elderly married couples at Old Greenwood in Truckee - typical indulgent, Nicklaus dogshit; ribbons of rock-hard putting surfaces, surrounded by bunkers that would feel at home at WF West.


It was literally painful to watch - and it was also clear all four of these seniors still had solid chops, just not enough bat-speed to solve 18 impossible riddles.


Later on, we saw them having late lunch in the clubhouse - slumped down in their chairs and exhausted. In other words, it was only 3pm and they were wiped out for the rest of the day.


The Lady Captain was only 100% correct - and until we quit building idiotic, indulgently difficult golf courses - and more gems like Deep Cliff in Cupertino (another Clark Glasson) - girls and women will give up the game at roughly the same rate as they take it up.


Obtaining new players and retaining them as steady customers over a lifetime are two completely different concepts. Right now, we are accomplishing neither in America very well.     
« Last Edit: January 16, 2022, 09:27:16 AM by Gib Papazian »