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Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tight lies in the fairway
« Reply #25 on: November 19, 2021, 11:59:00 AM »
Jeff, I used to have 3 steel head 13 degrees. I could just kill it. It was my favorite club in the bag. Not anymore.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tight lies in the fairway
« Reply #26 on: November 19, 2021, 12:24:44 PM »
A couple of things to throw into the debate …. light weight graphite shafts vrs steel shafts, the centre of gravity of metal heads vrs the cg of wooden heads. Fairway metal/wood sole shapes. The ball and how it spins or doesn’t spin.
And a question - if ground conditions had continued to be as varied as they once were, ie not so manicured, more main season semi-hardpan, would wide soled cavity back irons have developed or would more blade like soles still dominate?
Atb

Ken Moum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tight lies in the fairway
« Reply #27 on: November 19, 2021, 11:04:13 PM »
A couple of things to throw into the debate …. light weight graphite shafts vrs steel shafts, the centre of gravity of metal heads vrs the cg of wooden heads. Fairway metal/wood sole shapes. The ball and how it spins or doesn’t spin.
And a question - if ground conditions had continued to be as varied as they once were, ie not so manicured, more main season semi-hardpan, would wide soled cavity back irons have developed or would more blade like soles still dominate?
Atb


I played persimmon and laminated fairway woods almost exclusively as late as 2007 or 2008 and just played 18 with a Honma four wood today.  If the shaft weren't totally out of my current flex range I'd keep it in the bag, in fact I am thinking about reshafting it.


As you your points, steel vs. graphite is a completely other kettle of fish from head material.  CG height, OTOH, is remarkably easy to control in a head with a material as light as persimmon carrying a pretty heavy brass sole plate.  In fact, I believe there were several clubs in the 80s and later that had lower CGs than almost anything available now.


The original Cobra Baffler, Stan Thompson's Ginty, and the Louisville Golf Niblick series (theoretically still in production) were the main ones.


And, as far as hardpan lies go, wide-soled irons should have a distinct advantage over blades for getting the ball in the air.  Of course, the modern trend of jacking up lofts may have negated a lot of that advantage.


FWIW, until I got rid of hundreds of clubs when I moved into a motorhome, I had at least three vintage forged blade 1 irons (2 Macgregor and one Wilson Staff, IIRC).  They all had more than 20 degrees of loft. In TM's P790 iron set, that's a FOUR iron.
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tight lies in the fairway
« Reply #28 on: November 20, 2021, 02:15:15 AM »
I am definitely in favour of raising fairway heights, especially on links. It's gotten to the point where the average guy is spending tons of money on clubs for just the right wedges...or the wedge is option isn't viable. Its down to putters and bump n runs. If the fairways are kept firm, a bit more fairway height won't be an issue for offering all the shot choices. I still think sheep eaten height is about as good as it gets. On any given year I rarely play better conditioned fairways than Kington. Plenty of bounce in the ground, yet the turf has a lovely spring to it. It's a superb playing surface.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tight lies in the fairway
« Reply #29 on: November 20, 2021, 03:30:13 AM »
Interesting points Ken although I'm not sure I go along with them.
I do though go along with Seans point about sheep. I've been saying for a long time that sheep grazed fairways seem to be the optimum height of cut. Quality sword as well. They produce nice variable playing lines too.
atb

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tight lies in the fairway
« Reply #30 on: November 20, 2021, 07:50:09 AM »
I am definitely in favour of raising fairway heights, especially on links. It's gotten to the point where the average guy is spending tons of money on clubs for just the right wedges...or the wedge is option isn't viable. Its down to putters and bump n runs. If the fairways are kept firm, a bit more fairway height won't be an issue for offering all the shot choices. I still think sheep eaten height is about as good as it gets. On any given year I rarely play better conditioned fairways than Kington. Plenty of bounce in the ground, yet the turf has a lovely spring to it. It's a superb playing surface.

Ciao


Bingo.
Although I'm sure someone would find a way to have them roll around to further tighten the surfaces and regurgitate Primo...
And links are the least of the problem, as it least their tightness is firm underneath.


It used to be, we all were confounded by hardpan, and spent time practicing it, even developing a slightly hooded for sharpness with our blade PW "turf" expolsion shot for extreme hardpan lies
Now we're confounded by painted mud, and often resort to a similar messy explosion with an LW when in dire need of a high soft shot.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tight lies in the fairway
« Reply #31 on: November 20, 2021, 09:51:18 AM »
When I was in Ireland the summer of 2013 the only course i never used my wedges around the green was Royal County Down. I used putter for every shot .
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tight lies in the fairway
« Reply #32 on: November 20, 2021, 10:58:49 AM »
When I was in Ireland the summer of 2013 the only course i never used my wedges around the green was Royal County Down. I used putter for every shot .


Fifteen years ago I didn’t even consider the putter off the green. Old nerves and tight turf have made me a convert and now I will rarely opt for anything but putter if I can get in on the ground. The “miss” is significantly minimized compared to a bladed or chunked wedge.


Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tight lies in the fairway
« Reply #33 on: November 20, 2021, 11:10:19 AM »
Remember ‘chippers’? Basically a putter with extra loft. Used to be quite popular a decades ago.

Now just imagine if 20/25 years ago Tiger instead of using a fairway-metal to nudge the ball forward from just off the green had put a chipper in his bag.
Wow, likely ‘chippers’ would have sold in the millions and we’d all be carrying one and they’d probably be costing £/$300 or something equally daft and there’d be all sorts of different types with different flashy headcovers and different lengths and lie angles and different head shapes and different lofts and different sole widths and sole shapes and different face materials and different shafts and different grips and there’d be custom fitting and specialist manufacturers etc etc as well.
 :) :) :)
Atb


PS: And yes I do appreciate that the likes of Odyssey and Cleveland etc have been making similar idea specialist clubs for the last few years.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2021, 11:13:59 AM by Thomas Dai »

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tight lies in the fairway
« Reply #34 on: November 20, 2021, 11:20:56 AM »
There is nothing that makes a caddie happier than to see a mid to high capper opt for putter in this situation early in the round. They will have it out and ready to put in your hands at every subsequent opportunity.

Ken Moum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tight lies in the fairway
« Reply #35 on: November 21, 2021, 12:25:49 AM »
Remember ‘chippers’? Basically a putter with extra loft. Used to be quite popular a decades ago.

Now just imagine if 20/25 years ago Tiger instead of using a fairway-metal to nudge the ball forward from just off the green had put a chipper in his bag.
Wow, likely ‘chippers’ would have sold in the millions and we’d all be carrying one and they’d probably be costing £/$300 or something equally daft and there’d be all sorts of different types with different flashy headcovers and different lengths and lie angles and different head shapes and different lofts and different sole widths and sole shapes and different face materials and different shafts and different grips and there’d be custom fitting and specialist manufacturers etc etc as well.
 :) :) :)
Atb


PS: And yes I do appreciate that the likes of Odyssey and Cleveland etc have been making similar idea specialist clubs for the last few years.


I had a period of my golf club acquisition mania that focused on those clubs.  The dreaded eBay account allowed me accumulate ten of them, or thereabouts.


I still have a few, but the club I never found in my price range was the semi-putter. I still wonder if one would be useful.


I also have a couple of hickory putters with at least 8-9 degrees of loft that I might try just for the hell of it.
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

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