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Michael Goldstein

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Re: "6 Six Extinct Courses That Should be Reborn"
« Reply #25 on: August 09, 2021, 07:55:43 PM »
Oreti Sands in New Zealand.
Cromarty / Nigg in Scotland  ;)
@Pure_Golf

Peter Flory

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "6 Six Extinct Courses That Should be Reborn"
« Reply #26 on: August 09, 2021, 08:16:11 PM »

Here is the honest, no bullshit truth - don't believe any of the horseshit you read about Old Macdonald. The fact is, Mike Keiser's original conception was to recreate Lido - and even went so far as to fly Uncle George in his plane to Bandon to see if there aas a way to make it fit. Doak was deeply involved from the get-go, but I don't think there was a way to - for instance - magically create another Reynold's Channel.



That was a really solid decision by everyone involved to not try to build the Lido at the Old Mac site.  There would have had to have been so many compromises on the course itself to make it fit and it would have ignored the great landscape that was there.  Old Mac gives Bandon such a different dimension and it wouldn't exist if it wasn't for the Lido dreams, so I think that is pretty cool.  It is such a bold course. 




Jay Mickle

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "6 Six Extinct Courses That Should be Reborn"
« Reply #27 on: August 10, 2021, 02:00:53 PM »



Chris Buie make a great case for the resurrection of the Rockefeller's Donand Ross designed Overhills in the North Carolina Sandhills.


https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,46197.0.html
@MickleStix on Instagram
MickleStix.com

Jeff Kallberg

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "6 Six Extinct Courses That Should be Reborn"
« Reply #28 on: August 10, 2021, 02:40:56 PM »
I'll cast a second vote for Fox Hills.  Nostalgia is a powerful drug.


But this raises a separate question:  To what extent are "reborn" courses dependent on the originals having been constructed on relatively flat terrain (or on the original terrain still being available for golf)?   The flattish landscape of Long Island can be found in many places (including Wisconsin).  But trying to recapture the terrain of Fox Hills/Baldwin Hills in some other part of the world seems unlikely.


Jeff Kallberg

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "6 Six Extinct Courses That Should be Reborn"
« Reply #29 on: August 10, 2021, 03:10:15 PM »
Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!


The worst thing about the Lido course in Wisconsin is that we now have to listen to this debate for the years to come.


I might be in the minority but having Tom Doak and his crew rebuild an old golf course is like having the Foo Fighters cover an old Beatles album. Sure it'll be nice music but wouldn't you rather see what a great artist like the Foo Fighters would do next?
H.P.S.

Richard Fisher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "6 Six Extinct Courses That Should be Reborn"
« Reply #30 on: August 11, 2021, 04:10:52 AM »
The 9-hole links of the Royal Isle of Wight Golf Club on the Duver, opposite Bembridge. Prior to WW1 one of the most important and  influential golf clubs in the UK, and you can still stay in the old clubhouse and see some perfect golfing terrain: the RIofWGC finally expired c1960, thus removing the Sacred Nine's only real rival for the title of 'best 9 hole course in the UK' (see e.g. Sir Peter Allen on this theme).


I would also love to see the rebirth of the Merionethshire Golf Club on the spit at Fairbourne, opposite Barmouth: a founding club of the Welsh GU, and the 'starter nine' that has replaced it more recently in Fairbourne is nothing like the seaside course proper that disappeared nearly a century ago. The lost links at Dyffryn and Tywyn, both likewise on the coast between Harlech and Aberdovey, would also be strong contenders. A pretty, fun 6000 yard seaside course that everybody could play would be a tremendous addition to this particular Golf Coast...

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "6 Six Extinct Courses That Should be Reborn"
« Reply #31 on: August 11, 2021, 05:27:58 AM »

A fellow Hidden Creek NJ member, who knew the developer, recently mentioned to me that it was always the plan that Beechtree would operate for a short period as a golf course and then transition to housing.
In fact, if you look at Google Maps, the most recent image shows that the back nine is still undeveloped, fifteen years later.


As someone who played it the day before the closed (with a frost delay!) this made me feel ***old***
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Scott Sander

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "6 Six Extinct Courses That Should be Reborn"
« Reply #32 on: August 11, 2021, 09:50:27 AM »
...having Tom Doak and his crew rebuild an old golf course is like having the Foo Fighters cover an old Beatles album. Sure it'll be nice music but wouldn't you rather see what a great artist like the Foo Fighters would do next?


Err...


https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/foo-fighters-bee-gees-tribute-band-hail-satin-record-store-day-1185916/

(Think we can get 'em to do Boz Skaggs?  Lido Shuffle would bring it all full-circle.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: "6 Six Extinct Courses That Should be Reborn"
« Reply #33 on: August 11, 2021, 10:38:59 AM »
I'll cast a second vote for Fox Hills.  Nostalgia is a powerful drug.


But this raises a separate question:  To what extent are "reborn" courses dependent on the originals having been constructed on relatively flat terrain (or on the original terrain still being available for golf)?   The flattish landscape of Long Island can be found in many places (including Wisconsin).  But trying to recapture the terrain of Fox Hills/Baldwin Hills in some other part of the world seems unlikely.



Accurate!  A lot of the suggestions above are silly, because a site that had 50 feet of elevation change would be impractical to replicate.  The earthmoving to build the 10th hole at Augusta from flat land (if you could make a 50 foot cut for the ground in front of the green and still get it to drain) would be approx 300,000 cubic yards, just for the one hole!


One of the appeals of building the Lido is that it was entirely created from scratch the first time - so we know it can be done.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "6 Six Extinct Courses That Should be Reborn"
« Reply #34 on: August 11, 2021, 10:42:58 AM »
I like the idea of Annapolis being re-built.

Ciao
« Last Edit: August 11, 2021, 12:08:06 PM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: "6 Six Extinct Courses That Should be Reborn"
« Reply #35 on: August 11, 2021, 10:44:16 AM »


The worst thing about the Lido course in Wisconsin is that we now have to listen to this debate for the years to come.


I might be in the minority but having Tom Doak and his crew rebuild an old golf course is like having the Foo Fighters cover an old Beatles album. Sure it'll be nice music but wouldn't you rather see what a great artist like the Foo Fighters would do next?


I am with you on this, and hope that we will be able to build the new design across the street sooner instead of later, for comparison. 


But all those template fans are going to be gaga over the Lido, just like they are over a good Beatles cover.  I am sure that it was easier to sign up members for Lido than it would have been for “a Tom Doak design created entirely from flat ground”.  That’s why the movie business is nothing but sequels now.

Dan Gallaway

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "6 Six Extinct Courses That Should be Reborn"
« Reply #36 on: August 11, 2021, 10:56:30 AM »
And the Foo Fighters album of nothing but Bee Gee’s songs is going to be awesome!

Gib_Papazian

Re: "6 Six Extinct Courses That Should be Reborn"
« Reply #37 on: August 11, 2021, 06:06:41 PM »
Tom,

Your enthusiasm resurrecting Lido from the ashes of history is overwhelming.

If the Mona Lisa was destroyed by vandals - and we had enough information to hire the world's greatest fine art forger to perfectly recreate a facsimile of it, would the artistic validity of da Vinci's expression be erased because the original was gone?

Nope, it would proudly hang in the Louvre and still be studied by art students throughout the world.

Notre Dame Cathedral nearly burned to the ground, but every micron of what might be the world's most beautiful structure had been previously documented. Instead of rebuilding it, should France hire the modern hotshot architect du jour to build something different in its place?

Of course not! These are not only iconic works of art, but represent epochal achievements in the history of civilization.

Along the same line of reasoning, one can make the argument the original Lido was a seminal aesthetic, strategic and engineering creation in American golf history; a credible assertion can even be made (along with Timber Point) that Lido is the lost Atlantis of the game itself.

Like fabulous Shadow Creek, Lido was created from nothing . . . . one with unlimited casino money, the other only with pumped slurry and Raynor's imagination.


This is not like relocating non-descript London Bridge to completely out-of-context Lake Havasu - London Bridge is not a work of art like Tower Bridge . . . . which is why England did not replace it with an identical copy - even though it would have been a fairly simple matter.

Do you dig the fact you've been entrusted with the sacred duty of resurrecting and recreating a lost monument of American golf history? And not a vapid, Disney facsimile or Xeroxed pastiche - but a nuanced macro-scale creation, where nearly all the polish and touches will be yours. If it were me, I'd be scared to death, because you're being asked to remake the equivalent of a lost Kubrick film - with some key footage missing - without leaving an obvious imprint.

A man's gotta have brass stones to take that on, because you're chasing a ghost, not a mortal.You and I are one of the few who knew where and how this entire idea to build a new Lido got started - the fact you have been entrusted to bring it back to life strikes me as a peerless honor.

Doubtless, I'll be there on opening day . . . . . 
« Last Edit: August 12, 2021, 11:05:45 AM by Gib Papazian »

Peter Flory

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "6 Six Extinct Courses That Should be Reborn"
« Reply #38 on: August 11, 2021, 06:23:00 PM »
Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!


The worst thing about the Lido course in Wisconsin is that we now have to listen to this debate for the years to come.


I might be in the minority but having Tom Doak and his crew rebuild an old golf course is like having the Foo Fighters cover an old Beatles album. Sure it'll be nice music but wouldn't you rather see what a great artist like the Foo Fighters would do next?


The difference is that anyone can listen to the Beatles album while nobody can play the original Lido and no living person has memory of it that I'm aware of.  It is more like finding the sheet music from an unknown Beethoven symphony and having the London Philharmonic perform and record it. 


In the grand scheme of things, I don't think that Doak is going to produce one less course over the course of his career because of this.  It is conceivable that it might result in him producing even more original material in the long run. 

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "6 Six Extinct Courses That Should be Reborn"
« Reply #39 on: August 11, 2021, 07:28:28 PM »
There is no doubt that the new Lido is a very interesting exercise. In listening to Tom's podcast with Andy Johnson it was fascinating to hear about the process especially in the light of the technology at hand.


However, the entire project doesn't interest me that much to be honest. And threads like this where we are now talking about other courses that should be reborn makes me want to fall out of my chair.


Giving examples such as "if the Mona Lisa was destroyed, wouldn't you recreate it?" Well, no. You CAN'T recreate something as intricate as the Mona Lisa, or really any classical painting. There are so many details and brush strokes that literally can't be replicated, that there wouldn't be a point in hanging a Xerox copy in the Louvre. It's probably the same reason why they hang empty frames of the stolen paintings in the Isabella Gardner Museum in Boston as opposed to putting a replica in there. It's pointless.


Notre Dame isn't a perfect example, either. It was hugely damaged by the fire, but much of it is still there and it's possible to repair it. If the Lido was reduced to 9 holes in 1950 but the land that the other holes sit on was somehow undeveloped...maybe that would be a better example?


As Mr. Doak says perhaps this is a great use of a flat, sandy site in Wisconsin. And given the popularity of MacRaynor designs these days it clearly brings a high level of interest in that core Sand Valley customer (or someone who want's to be a member and build a home in the surrounding neighborhood). I'm sure people will enjoy playing the course, but for a design team capable of really innovative things such as Doak's, I tend to think of what else could of been possible. Or if nothing else I would of rather of seen the par-67 course across the street get built first.


Back to the primary topic, I would rather see something new and interesting than a bunch of recreations. I'd take one Loop or original Sheep Ranch over ten Lidos, but I'm clearly in the minority there.







H.P.S.

Will Lozier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "6 Six Extinct Courses That Should be Reborn"
« Reply #40 on: August 11, 2021, 08:07:04 PM »
Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!


The worst thing about the Lido course in Wisconsin is that we now have to listen to this debate for the years to come.


I might be in the minority but having Tom Doak and his crew rebuild an old golf course is like having the Foo Fighters cover an old Beatles album. Sure it'll be nice music but wouldn't you rather see what a great artist like the Foo Fighters would do next?


The difference is that anyone can listen to the Beatles album while nobody can play the original Lido and no living person has memory of it that I'm aware of.  It is more like finding the sheet music from an unknown Beethoven symphony and having the London Philharmonic perform and record it. 


In the grand scheme of things, I don't think that Doak is going to produce one less course over the course of his career because of this.  It is conceivable that it might result in him producing even more original material in the long run.


Well said. Current vote totals on Doak's Lido being a good idea: 523-1. :)
« Last Edit: August 11, 2021, 08:27:44 PM by Will Lozier »

Gib_Papazian

Re: "6 Six Extinct Courses That Should be Reborn"
« Reply #41 on: August 11, 2021, 08:56:10 PM »
PCCraig,


I beg to differ. With the current technology, an accurate recreation of the Mona Lisa is within reach - and since the tone, texture and composition has stood the test of time, what could possibly be the reason not to present as close a reproduction as you can for future generations to enjoy?


Using measurements and modern metallurgy, we can recreate a George Low putter with incredible accuracy. Does the fact it is a reproduction make the ball roll cockeyed?


And Lido is not an unknown Beethoven composition, dug out of a Vienna attic, there are photos and routing plans and enough documentation that an extremely skilled architect and builder can resurrect history.


Is Old Macdonald diminished because it shares common DNA with NGLA and the C.B./Raynor oeuvre? You might prefer the absolute originality of Pac Dunes (using Tom's work as an example) and that is okay, but if in 100 years it was gone and some wealthy historian wanted to showcase it for future generations, you would say NOOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooo?


How about if the NGLA membership votes to raze the golf course and sell it to a developer? The first and last name of every blade of grass has been documented, so would it be worth the trouble to recreate it next to the Sleeping Bear dunescape? If the answer is no, then the constant "thirst for novelty" has overtaken your appreciation for the bedrock classics.


The Bible was written a very long time ago - and has been copied, translated and retranslated a thousand times. Nobody has the original scriptures, but 2.5 billion people identify with some later permutation. Because it is not EXACT to the original, shall we just conjure up a secular replacement from scratch? Or use what we have to the best of our ability?


The King James version came along 1500 years after Christ, Lido has only been extinct for a tiny fraction of that - and even the original clubhouse, in bubble gum pink, is still standing.




 




Daryl David

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "6 Six Extinct Courses That Should be Reborn"
« Reply #42 on: August 11, 2021, 09:51:28 PM »

I might be in the minority but having Tom Doak and his crew rebuild an old golf course is like having the Foo Fighters cover an old Beatles album. Sure it'll be nice music but wouldn't you rather see what a great artist like the Foo Fighters would do next?


I guess Dave Grohl and his band mates disagree.  ;D
https://www.stereogum.com/2154377/stream-foo-fighters-bee-gees-tribute-album-as-the-dee-gees-hail-satin/music/

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "6 Six Extinct Courses That Should be Reborn"
« Reply #43 on: August 11, 2021, 10:15:04 PM »

I might be in the minority but having Tom Doak and his crew rebuild an old golf course is like having the Foo Fighters cover an old Beatles album. Sure it'll be nice music but wouldn't you rather see what a great artist like the Foo Fighters would do next?


I guess Dave Grohl and his band mates disagree.  ;D
https://www.stereogum.com/2154377/stream-foo-fighters-bee-gees-tribute-album-as-the-dee-gees-hail-satin/music/


Right. But if you read the article you posted they created an album that is a few covers then a bunch of their own music. So, while my coincidental choice in artist backfired slightly my point remains.


The Foo Fighters covering some old Bee Gees songs is great. It's almost like a modern golf course architect reimagining classic golf course template holes in a modern setting...oh wait that was Old Macdonald!!  ;) 
H.P.S.

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "6 Six Extinct Courses That Should be Reborn"
« Reply #44 on: August 11, 2021, 10:29:16 PM »
PCCraig,


I beg to differ. With the current technology, an accurate recreation of the Mona Lisa is within reach - and since the tone, texture and composition has stood the test of time, what could possibly be the reason not to present as close a reproduction as you can for future generations to enjoy?



Because no matter how "accurate" you think you're being future generations WOULDN'T ACTUALLY LOOKING AT THE MONA LISA!!! If the Mona Lisa was a known reproduction and not of Di Vinci's hand, it wouldn't carry the same weight no matter who actually reproduced it.


Again, it's an interesting project and one that I hope turns out well. I'm glad Tom Doak and his team are the ones making the effort. My only point was that I find it unfortunate that people are more excited about an unoriginal design or reproduction than something unique from one of the greatest living golf course architects.


The thing about *artists* is that they don't just reproduce the same thing over and over again. They push boundaries and experiment. I personally find that type of boundary pushing far more interesting but then again I am apparently in the minority.
H.P.S.

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "6 Six Extinct Courses That Should be Reborn"
« Reply #45 on: August 12, 2021, 02:18:20 AM »
I’m kinda with Pat on this one. Lido is a cool idea and Tom & team are far more likely to come up with a good to great course than any other architect.


But in the end, the project is engineered and somewhat contrived. Plus I’m still not convinced the original Lido was actually all that! Contemporary reviews were as likely wowed by the scale of the build and modern day reviews are through rose-tinted glasses.


Then again, in a counter-intuitive way, maybe rebuilding someone else’s work frees Tom up in some areas.


Show me I’m wrong. I probably am. But I’m also sure I’ll have hundreds of courses I want to visit before seeing this one.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "6 Six Extinct Courses That Should be Reborn"
« Reply #46 on: August 12, 2021, 01:30:48 PM »
I think the Lido is the GCA equivalent of a 1st world problem.  Outside of this site and a handful of dedicated lurkers/enthusiasts, does anyone else know what the Lido was?  Much less care if its re-created?

I hope the project is successful and I think it will, but it will be judged by the masses (and their wallets) for what is in the ground and how it plays, not what its supposed to be a representation of or otherwise.

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "6 Six Extinct Courses That Should be Reborn"
« Reply #47 on: August 12, 2021, 04:18:34 PM »
I hope the project is successful and I think it will, but it will be judged by the masses (and their wallets) for what is in the ground and how it plays, not what its supposed to be a representation of or otherwise.


I think it's probably worth a reminder that the Lido is a private residential golf club. It won't be judged by the masses' wallets because there are members that are paying for it, with subsidies from some resort play.


Clearly enough people have heard of the Lido, or are enthused by the thought of a reincarnated MacRaynor course that they were able to pay for the initial construction?
H.P.S.

Mark Mammel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "6 Six Extinct Courses That Should be Reborn"
« Reply #48 on: August 12, 2021, 04:55:32 PM »
I'm with Pat on this one. I've toured the Lido site; it will be an amazing feat of technology and computing power. But does the project need the talents of Tom Doak and team to be recreated? Would someone ask IM Pei to create an exact replica of the Eiffel Tower? Elon Musk to replicate the Model T? I know there is huge enthusiasm for the project from many, including the Doak team. I do not mean to suggest that the fervor for the project is anything less than sincere and exciting. Of course having the Renaissance team involved guarantees investment dollars, attention, and revenue. But I'm standing by for the next course Tom is doing at SV with bated breath.
523-2
So much golf to play, so little time....

Mark

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "6 Six Extinct Courses That Should be Reborn"
« Reply #49 on: August 12, 2021, 05:10:55 PM »
Mark,


Whilst I said I was also in agreement with Pat, this absolutely needs an expert group of builders to make it work, even more so than many original courses.


The project will only thrive on the details that are added, not known.

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