Heavily contoured greens

[Jeff_Brauer]

Mark,


I've always said two or more ways to hit a green is strategic, only one way is penal, and I guess I should have added no way to hit a green is at worst, unfair, and if you don't care for that word, perhaps anti-strategic in the sense that it doesn't matter what decision you make on your approach shot.


As Colt once said, (approximate quote) "In no case should the ball run away from the putter like a swine possessed by the devil."  It's about my favorite quote, and I always keep it in mind when I design.  It's rarely reported that there are possessed swine on my greens, although, I played one of my courses from my wild greens period, and even then, there were a few areas that were difficult to putt from, but none that were impossible to putt to.

[Gib_Papazian]

Several thoughts, the first being that picture from Askernich takes the blue ribbon for golf porn. I was just trying to figure out how to get my seasick ass there without feeding the fish across the North Sea.

The second is a question for Mark Fine. I'm a very good wedge player, but the left-side green at PV #8 terrifies me to the point I start worrying about it even before teeing off - yet I love it, even though it strikes me as nearly impossible. Wondering how he feels about that particular torture test. I'd rather deal with a fried egg in the Devil's Asshole than try to hit that green from a perfect lie in the fairway on #8. 

The third is that Marty Feldman is apparently Benny Hill's American doppelganger. There is actually a true story about playing out of a clubhouse bedroom - because I would know - from NGLA, some time in the early 1930s.

It seems one of the members (whose name escapes me) was coming up #18 in a tight match, when he hit a high hook right though an open bedroom window on the 2nd floor. Since the clubhouse was not technically O.B. - and the wager was more than a few shekels - the member and dutiful caddy trudged up the stairs and waltzed into the bedroom, only to find a fellow member and one of the *Chicken House ladies in full-rip flagrante delicto.

Undaunted - although the caddy likely covered his eyes - the member calmly took his niblick and popped it back into play through the same open window, excusing himself - leaving the pair to finish their extramarital boinking. My recollection is the match was still lost, but I've got to admire his commitment and pluck.


*And yes, the euphemistically named "Chicken House" was on Ram Island, right across the Bulls Head inlet - where a half-dozen hand-picked lovelies were housed during the season - whose sole purpose was entertainment for the members on site. Somewhere in my archives, I've a note from C.B. himself, ordering the maintenance man to get over to the house immediately - because the ladies were bitterly complaining about the lack of hot water. The clubhouse telescope, atop the circular stairs, was used to identify member yachts (before the 1938 hurricane destroyed the berth) by their flags on the horizon, so the staff could greet the arrival with his favorite meal and companion. That is the problem with trying to adjudge the past, using the current cultural climate as a measuring stick - so preached one of my professors in discussing the importance of historical perspective . . . . I'm disappointed that C.B. Macdonald tried to bar John Shippen from playing in the Open, but not advocating removing his statue from the library either. Not everyone can be perfect enough to pass judgment like V. Kmetz.       

[Brad Lawrence]

Brad,
I can’t recall that green (only played the course once probably 15-20 years ago) but if a scratch player can’t hit that green but 2 in 10 times from 100 yards I would probably say it is silly vs great.  Has nothing to do with fairness.  Has more to do with questionable design.  Hard for the sake of hard is easy to accomplish but rarely is that viewed as something special.   I don’t hate too many things but I doubt I would love it.

That’s a quite common opinion according to what I’ve read and what our host said. He loves it, as did I.  What can be more fun than assessing the situation and trying to come up with a way to manufacture a score?  I had about 70 yards in. Because I left it about 15 feet short, I ended up with a 60 footer up a large slope from the collar. My first thought was, I wanna go back to the tee and try this hole again. More of that please, architects.

[Mark_Fine]

Gib,
I played Pine Valley three weeks ago and we did play to the left green.  It is not much easier than the right green but it will receive a well played shot.  Nothing wrong with a small target especially when the architect knows the hole will be approached by a very short club.  I presumed Brad was talking about a green that  was so sloped that it was near impossible to hold a good shot.  I didn't think he was discussing size. 


The 16th green at Robber's Row in Hilton Head is a very cool tiny green (I doubt it is more than 2000 sq ft) but the hole is under 300 yards long.  It requires a precise shot but a scratch player will hit it more than 2 in 10 tries. 

Jeff,
I call something like that "poor design".  I just avoid the words fair and unfair as they get used too often and for the wrong reasons when describing golf holes,...

Mark

[V. Kmetz]

*And yes, the euphemistically named "Chicken House" was on Ram Island, right across the Bulls Head inlet - where a half-dozen hand-picked lovelies were housed during the season - whose sole purpose was entertainment for the members on site. Somewhere in my archives, I've a note from C.B. himself, ordering the maintenance man to get over to the house immediately - because the ladies were bitterly complaining about the lack of hot water. The clubhouse telescope, atop the circular stairs, was used to identify member yachts (before the 1938 hurricane destroyed the berth) by their flags on the horizon, so the staff could greet the arrival with his favorite meal and companion. That is the problem with trying to adjudge the past, using the current cultural climate as a measuring stick - so preached one of my professors in discussing the importance of historical perspective . . . . I'm disappointed that C.B. Macdonald tried to bar John Shippen from playing in the Open, but not advocating removing his statue from the library either. Not everyone can be perfect enough to pass judgment like V. Kmetz.

Oh goody, though sniffing us through his lachrymose realization of dwindling meaning just hours ago, it turns out Olymprick still wants to play... what's it to be now, "Scotland's Gift: Pimps"? is a companion edition "The Evangelist of Concubines" now in the offing?


Still I do not recall ever having lobbied here for the removal of this (or any) statue, nor do I see a previous post of mine in this thread from which to make such an ending comment.


But what am I saying? GLib can take ANY subject, ANY thread straight to the gonads and the serial enunciation of his informercial-grade testosterone regimen. GLib wants you to know he LIKES BANGING BIOLOGICAL FEMALES...he likes thinking about it, contemplating it,  making scenarios about it, wondering about it, recounting stories of other people banging females... those of you whose courses have female sheep grazing, consider your invites carefully.


"Green Contours"? "Guest Behavior"? "Irrigation"?... No matter; it all eventually can be reduced to bathroom graffiti of a cock and balls and a pair of tits applied with a Titleist marking pen...maybe, given this anecdote, a phone number: "For a good time: Call 1-516-FUK-WASP"


Still, I'm in no position to announce judgement on CBM in this matter; my private exploits in Amsterdam create a glass house.  (I didn't know you could get a statue for it)... I'm just wondering, why isn't the statue on the 2nd floor? That's where it seems all the action was.  Or perhaps they've erected one up there to Rachel Uchitel, or Richard Roundtree.


Oh, last social justice point (again, JUST b/c GLibbo brings it up)..."he's disappointed" CBM kept Shippen out?  What's his passing disappointment worth? Nothing, a fart, so he can seem like a "fair" guy... but maybe everyone here stops for just a sec, and without needing to rip down a statue in a private club, you can see what minorities, especially African Americans, mean by institutional racism that in just one pocket of cultural affairs, HAS robbed them of their opportunity or ability to have long standing heroes. Maybe if American golf, the richest, whitest, malest sport of long standing, had a minority as it first national champion, then it would've been harder to keep them out of the sport as long as it has.... more heroes that look like they do, that face what they have...more sports unable to keep minorities out... more accomplishments, more honors, more cultural currency and worth...


Just one tiny little pocket of a shameful racial story...and you see how it gets the G(l)ip service...but boy could CBM ever get his friends laid!


***I quasi-apologize to those, who like me, expected to find something further on "Heavily contoured greens," but I will not give up the course turf to native pests, a little Ortho must be applied occasionally

[Gib_Papazian]

V. Kmetz,

It did not occur to me to look back on this thread until I received 4 or 5 PM's and emails, advising me to ignore you.

You were described as everything from “hapless soul” (not sure why) to “an obnoxious douchebag” (obvious why) - who apparently fancies himself some kind of cancel-culture social warrior. Who issued you a Thought Police badge and spray bottle of Ortho is a mystery, but maybe you ought to quit snorting it.

And if we ever have a KP again, make sure you play for the other team - I’m guessing 5 and 4 when I dispatch your smart mouth and the rodent's tail between your legs. I’ve never not shaken a man’s hand after a match, but in your case, I’ll put aside my upbringing and leave you with your dick in your hand.     

Here is a little piece of advice for you. If you’re going to skin that smoke wagon and play the dozens against somebody, try to do it with some creativity and panache. Blunt force, ad hominem taunts are apparently not impressing the studio audience, but if you want to take this offline and throw down, well, I’m your Huckleberry.

And so we are clear - in a vain attempt to penetrate the cement between your ears - the point of my last post was not to virtue signal - particularly to a nauseating puke like you - but give everyone a chuckle with a true story from a golf history book I helped write . . . C.B. and his friends were a complex tapestry of good, bad, ugly and brilliant, just like our Founding Fathers. If you’d put down that Stacey Abrams sex novel long enough to read some books on golf architecture, you might actually contribute something of substance for a change.

[Ira Fishman]

Having initiated this thread, I request that it be deleted.


Thank you.


Ira

[V. Kmetz]

Gib


I know you're a jackass and its tough; but I accept your apology.


1. Going forward, it's easy enough...You don't want to hear it from me? Then don't mention my name unsolicited, as you did (yes or no?) here... in reply to nothing I've written, in a thread that I haven't contributed to...casting about concepts I've never used, in opinions I've not expressed, about typically off-topic "white man's complaint-garbage" you and the Frisco Kid serve with just about all of your Happy Meals. I'm ALWAYS going to answer that bullshit; count on it.


2. If you don't want to hear it about you, then don't cast off on your own fancy drone strikes, encapsulating everything and everybody who has another thought on any topic, a liberal target...and confine your pathetic chauvinism... "heavily contoured" means greens not cleavage or quaint stories of the whores (nor the uncountable abortions I'm sure the ol boys and their progeny have wagged their finger at enduringly for the rest of womankind)


STILL, I  invite you and the board to examine the actual record of all our posts, our threads, whether directly engaged or not, whether on or off topic or not, and let's see who needs to govern their tongue, and cool it.


Yet in another perspective - like you - I don't really give a shit.  Like you, I too receive messages of support. Perhaps the board would enjoy it if we just swing at one another with one caveat...we just make threads about that.  I'm fine with you issuing V. Kmetz - Jackwagon threads...if I get my Gib Papazian - Jackoff threads in equal and or responsive measure.  Too fatiguing and immature? I agree.


So follow #1 and #2 and you won't hear a peep from me to or about you except about germane items to the board.


A reminder: poison...and sleep.