News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
 :'( ::)


just talked to a local who eats breakfast at my favorite joint. He talks a lot about golf and over the last year my friend and I have engaged with him a little about his golf.  My friend was the best player ever from the area and is pretty much retired from playing but loves talking golf.  Joe as I will call him, is  fairly naive about the ins and outs of golf but really enjoys the banter about clubs , players etc etc. He has no idea that Billy and I are golf fanatics.  He must have a little $cha ching as the other day he mentioned they put him on the newly formed greens committee. Pretty scary lol ;D


So he mentions they need a new irrigation system which I had heard. Starts telling me they are had talked to Toro and it looked like it was going o come in around $1.7 m. Yikes! man,what a racket and it's a course that lends itself perfectly to hard and fast with three or four holes right along the water, quite beautiful in spots.


 Was tempted to call the owners and ask them if they were going to really go for that whole enchilada. As I'm writing this
have decided I will this week and hope they haven't already signed a contract with some "consultant" who of course doesn't get anything extra when the price escalates. HA HA........oops here I go again
« Last Edit: April 25, 2021, 09:30:18 AM by archie_struthers »

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Here we go again, the ridiculous cost of irrigation systems!
« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2021, 11:35:23 AM »
Archie,


How does a club know if it needs a new irrigation system and if so, how much it should cost? Does improving drainage require upgrading the whole system?


Thanks,


Ira

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Here we go again, the ridiculous cost of irrigation systems!
« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2021, 11:57:01 AM »
 8)


Ira , good question. I would surmise that if inspected by irrigation "expert" consultants as a whole over 50% of golf course irrigation systems in the US would need to be replaced. Not to demean them personally but it's a way past cottage industry  and has been built with the help of some of our best and brightest. Including many of our superintendents, who I have tremendous respect for in general. Not necessarily when it comes to super deluxe systems.


Leo Fraser one of the best golf course operators ever ACCC  (president of PGA) bemoaned the advent of irrigation , particularly wall to wall systems. He saw what was coning and the inevitable costs associated  with it. It takes a frugal Scot to see sometimes  ;D


Actually running out but will return for sure,

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Here we go again, the ridiculous cost of irrigation systems!
« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2021, 12:17:28 PM »
Archie:


I was out playing a couple of days ago on a favorite course, when I spied three sprinkler heads no more than 25 feet apart at the edge of a fairway 180 yards off the tee.  Somehow the irrigation designer had decided that the curve of the fairway needed to be delineated precisely by irrigation, even though the fairway line was 25 feet away from a bunker edge [e.g. probably not where it should be], and the grasses in the rough are not much different than those in the fairway. 


That's how irrigation systems get expensive:  overdesign.  [My spell checker wanted that to be "overdosing".   :-X [size=78%]  ][/size]

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Here we go again, the ridiculous cost of irrigation systems!
« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2021, 08:40:57 PM »
 8)


It's crazy how the Augusta Syndrome has left the barn for courses that aren't anywhere in the same league. Not even in the same universe as far as money and prestige.


It would be like buying a $400,000 car while living in a $250,000 home ....many of you guys in the Northeast might remember the pitch from Crazy Eddie ....the prices are "insane"

Greg Chambers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Here we go again, the ridiculous cost of irrigation systems!
« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2021, 12:17:21 AM »
Thanks for mentioning Toro in your OP Archie.  I think it’s important to realize that when pricing a new system, the manufacturers cost is only about 25% of the cost of the system.  The rest is the combo of allied and installation.  Allied is going off the charts right now, and contractors are pretty busy...so not a lot of great deals out there right now.


 I won’t argue that systems are being over designed.  I have plenty of examples, but I’ll keep them to myself.
"It's good sportsmanship to not pick up lost golf balls while they are still rolling.”

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Here we go again, the ridiculous cost of irrigation systems!
« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2021, 06:54:29 AM »
8)


It's crazy how the Augusta Syndrome has left the barn for courses that aren't anywhere in the same league. Not even in the same universe as far as money and prestige.


It would be like buying a $400,000 car while living in a $250,000 home ....many of you guys in the Northeast might remember the pitch from Crazy Eddie ....the prices are "insane"


I remember reading about Crazy Eddie back at the time it failed. The reason that they “would not be undersold” is that all their model numbers were exclusive to each individual manufacturer.

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Here we go again, the ridiculous cost of irrigation systems!
« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2021, 08:26:56 AM »
 ;D


Greg a couple examples would be illuminating for many of our friends here on site. You don't have to give specific golf courses but perhaps just the way it is over designed.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Here we go again, the ridiculous cost of irrigation systems!
« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2021, 10:34:17 AM »
In this hyper inflation phase of Covid recovery, irrigation is going through the roof, mostly material cost (including trucking)


As to design, the biggest culprits, if you will, are sprinkler spacing and water window, which used to be 8 hours, extended to 10, but now seems to be a max of six hours, even for the dozen or so hottest days of the year.  Pumping a million gallons per night in 6 hours requires 2800 GPM or so, vs "the old days" when a pump station over 2,000 GPM was typical, with extended hours.  All the mainline pipe sizes could be smaller, too.  So, it adds up.  I doubt you can find too many supers or irrigation designers comfortable with longer water windows now, because it seems to be standard, and you can defend standard when things go wrong.


The debate has gone on forever.  Back in the 70's, the suppliers used to do "free design" to sell their product, and to keep systems less expensive, designed for watering every other fw, each night.  The high end irrigation designers then (and now) designed to water every fw every night, again, which is necessary only a month per year max.  Golfers didn't like one nine being wet and the other dry, or sometimes consecutive holes were on different schedules, etc.  For that matter, picky golfers preferred more consistency from day to day, so supers started watering 0.1" per night rather than 0.2" every other night.


Soil moisture monitors in more common use now show that much turf doesn't need 100% of Evapotranspiration (the  old way to measure water need) so there may be some hope, but not many in the biz want to chance some browning that might occur every summer with a smaller GPM system.  If it happens, it will probably be due to govt. regulations, not those in the industry, for whom green is still the priority, as opposed to minimum water use (unless, of course, they are paying for it)
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Here we go again, the ridiculous cost of irrigation systems!
« Reply #9 on: April 27, 2021, 08:39:37 PM »
Irrigation systems usually cost what an owner allows them to cost...that is the way the game is played...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Here we go again, the ridiculous cost of irrigation systems!
« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2021, 12:27:15 AM »
For municipal golf, the costs are a very tough aspect to include. I recall back in the 80's and my local muni was going through a renovation of the front 9 by Wadsworth and as a teen remember being shocked when my dad told me a third of the cost was going to be putting in ground "sprinklers" as we knew it then. I thought to myself, "what a waste of money" as it was always done with hoses and large sprinklers.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Jaeger Kovich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Here we go again, the ridiculous cost of irrigation systems!
« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2021, 07:08:39 AM »
Let’s not forget that the parts and materials are also extremely expensive... any of you been to a hardware store lately? Material prices are absolutely surging and it’s hard to get the stuff too. That doesn’t appear like it’s gonna change either.


Also many of the big irrigation contractors are booked solid for like 1-2 years in advance. Why would they want to do it for less?

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Here we go again, the ridiculous cost of irrigation systems!
« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2021, 08:03:56 AM »
 ;D


Jaeger, a big hello hope all is well ;D




Two reasons at least...most clubs can't afford it


       and it is an unrealistic expectation by many "in the business"


        further when things become ridiculously expensive it's time for a change


         hoping some young hungry contractors seize the opportunity to fill the niche

SB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Here we go again, the ridiculous cost of irrigation systems!
« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2021, 08:32:25 AM »
The way these are usually justified is that someone says "we're spending $100,000 a year on irrigation repairs, we have three full time guys doing nothing but fixing leaks, plus the cost of parts and the superintendents time". 


After the new irrigation system gets put in, the two guys are kept on staff and the parts budget is moved to other line items.  Since I've never seen a single prospective member join because of a new irrigation system, the $1.5M cost of the irrigation system simply becomes an giant expense, usually paid for with expensive vendor financing, so your $1.5M system ends up sucking $2M out of the budget.


At least those clubhouse renovations usually add members.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Here we go again, the ridiculous cost of irrigation systems!
« Reply #14 on: April 28, 2021, 10:39:22 AM »
The way these are usually justified is that someone says "we're spending $100,000 a year on irrigation repairs, we have three full time guys doing nothing but fixing leaks, plus the cost of parts and the superintendents time". 


After the new irrigation system gets put in, the two guys are kept on staff and the parts budget is moved to other line items.  Since I've never seen a single prospective member join because of a new irrigation system, the $1.5M cost of the irrigation system simply becomes a giant expense, usually paid for with expensive vendor financing, so your $1.5M system ends up sucking $2M out of the budget.


At least those clubhouse renovations usually add members.


Yes, but they do join because of green grass, no?


I would bet that most places may gain a few members for clubhouses, but that the debt per new member probably exceeds the value they bring in dues, at least in the biggest overspends.  Of course, I haven't gone through anyone's budgets completely, so this is a generalization based on the 99% or so of courses I have worked for that regret clubhouse spending more than irrigation spending.


You are correct that new systems are justified by the expense (and watering inefficiencies) of the old system.  If the debt on a $1.5Mil system is even $120K with current interest rates, and they save $100K to be used elsewhere, it is a pretty compelling argument, even if "wear it out, use it up" probably is lower cost overall, not unlike running your car into the ground vs. buying new every 3 years.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom Bacsanyi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Here we go again, the ridiculous cost of irrigation systems!
« Reply #15 on: April 28, 2021, 04:57:02 PM »
It's pretty easy to throw out nominal measures like $1.7 million and say "ridiculous!". Fact is, anything in the built environment right now is incredibly expensive. Try pricing out a new-build 2000 sq foot house right now. Have you checked on the lumber market lately? Skilled or unskilled trade labor? You would be lucky to even find availability, let alone have any kind of negotiating leverage on price. Through that lens, now view just the problem of burying miles upon miles of HDPE piping at precise angles, depths, and intervals, and the costs become far less surprising.


Out here in the high and dry Mountain West, $1.7 million would be a reasonable expectation for 9 holes.
Don't play too much golf. Two rounds a day are plenty.

--Harry Vardon

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Here we go again, the ridiculous cost of irrigation systems!
« Reply #16 on: April 28, 2021, 05:15:30 PM »
A typical $18 dollar sheet of plywood currently costs $58.  Yeah, prices are going up.  I see about 40% in golf course construction from just 2 years ago, when "average inflation" would be 6.5% higher.  A system costing $1500 per sprinkler may now cost $2000 per.


It makes the economics of renovation a lot tougher.  Even moderate level construction on total renovations or new courses is at $500,000 a hole, formerly Tom Fazio numbers!  I bet he would be spending almost a million a hole these days.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jaeger Kovich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Here we go again, the ridiculous cost of irrigation systems!
« Reply #17 on: April 28, 2021, 06:18:19 PM »
;D


Jaeger, a big hello hope all is well ;D




Two reasons at least...most clubs can't afford it


       and it is an unrealistic expectation by many "in the business"


        further when things become ridiculously expensive it's time for a change


         hoping some young hungry contractors seize the opportunity to fill the niche


All well Arch, hope to see you down the shore this summer!... I almost finished my post with your last sentiment. There is certainly an opportunity  for a small/mid size irrigation contractor in the GAP/MGA/New England to do work that is beyond the capability  of most in-house teams and too small to get the attention of the big guys... But they dont call it IRRITATION for nothing!

Jaeger Kovich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Here we go again, the ridiculous cost of irrigation systems!
« Reply #18 on: April 28, 2021, 06:20:05 PM »
The way these are usually justified is that someone says "we're spending $100,000 a year on irrigation repairs, we have three full time guys doing nothing but fixing leaks, plus the cost of parts and the superintendents time". 


After the new irrigation system gets put in, the two guys are kept on staff and the parts budget is moved to other line items.  Since I've never seen a single prospective member join because of a new irrigation system, the $1.5M cost of the irrigation system simply becomes an giant expense, usually paid for with expensive vendor financing, so your $1.5M system ends up sucking $2M out of the budget.


At least those clubhouse renovations usually add members.


I'm sure your golf course superintendent will be thrilled with that line of thinking... probably so thrilled he'll look for a new job!

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back