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Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Anthony,
Changing architects happens a lot which is in part why soooo many golf courses get altered.  But the question is, is it because they want more interesting golf architecture or just want something else??

I am happy to say I get hired much more than fired but it does happen to all of us.  I did a full Master Plan for one club in the Northeast and before they had the chance to vote on it, they let me go. It is their club and while I was disappointed, it happens.  They started interviewing other “more well known” architects including Gil Hanse who they wanted to accept the job.  After they contacted Gil he called me and asked what happened.  I said I thought they just wanted a bigger name and I understood.  He asked me to send him my master plan.  When he met with the club he said he had looked over my work and suggested to the hiring committee that he loved it and wanted to implement it with me.  They said no and wanted him to do his own new plan.  Gil being Gil walked away to their dismay.  Did they want better/more interesting architecture or did they something more than that?

Usually it is a very small group that drives these decisions and we don’t always know why.  Part of why this is a tough business.  It is often more than just the architecture.  Lots of egos involved but no worries.  I am sure in Norman’s case, he will manage  :)

AChao

  • Karma: +0/-0

Yes Mike!  Started looking for a place in one of those cities!  Now, need to figure-out how to join a club that I'd want to play in the city I'm looking at.


Just realized ... many cities with great courses have many clubs that are hard to join while some clubs in cities with less interesting courses just want to make sure your check doesn't bounce.




Yes.  Philly is great.  I went there for business school.  What a place for golf ... or New York or Long Island or Boston or SF and other citifies.  Unfortunately for me and others, we live in architecturally not-so-great areas.



AChao makes me realize why members at my club are aware of architecture. It’s because there are a lot of interesting courses in Philly. The competition is intense and as members play other courses they come home demanding a better course. Luckily we can compete.




But I still say that BEFORE we do something resistance to change is there but after the work is done they love it.


Move!
« Last Edit: February 14, 2021, 04:09:57 AM by AChao »

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0

Yes Mike!  Started looking for a place in one of those cities!  Now, need to figure-out how to join a club that I'd want to play in the city I'm looking at.


Just realized ... many cities with great courses have many clubs that are hard to join while some clubs in cities with less interesting courses just want to make sure your check doesn't bounce.




Yes.  Philly is great.  I went there for business school.  What a place for golf ... or New York or Long Island or Boston or SF and other citifies.  Unfortunately for me and others, we live in architecturally not-so-great areas.



AChao makes me realize why members at my club are aware of architecture. It’s because there are a lot of interesting courses in Philly. The competition is intense and as members play other courses they come home demanding a better course. Luckily we can compete.




But I still say that BEFORE we do something resistance to change is there but after the work is done they love it.


Move!


If you come to Philly contact me.
AKA Mayday

Anthony Butler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Anthony,
Changing architects happens a lot which is in part why soooo many golf courses get altered.  But the question is, is it because they want more interesting golf architecture or just want something else??

I am happy to say I get hired much more than fired but it does happen to all of us.  I did a full Master Plan for one club in the Northeast and before they had the chance to vote on it, they let me go. It is their club and while I was disappointed, it happens.  They started interviewing other “more well known” architects including Gil Hanse who they wanted to accept the job.  After they contacted Gil he called me and asked what happened.  I said I thought they just wanted a bigger name and I understood.  He asked me to send him my master plan.  When he met with the club he said he had looked over my work and suggested to the hiring committee that he loved it and wanted to implement it with me.  They said no and wanted him to do his own new plan.  Gil being Gil walked away to their dismay.  Did they want better/more interesting architecture or did they something more than that?

Usually it is a very small group that drives these decisions and we don’t always know why.  Part of why this is a tough business.  It is often more than just the architecture.  Lots of egos involved but no worries.  I am sure in Norman’s case, he will manage  :)


Hi Mark,


I’m not sure how anyone could possibly see hiring Tom Doak over Greg Norman for an Australian club as being driven by the desire for a ‘bigger name’.


I can, however, give you a specific example of why the club started to look beyond Norman...


About 7-8 years ago, it was made known to the club that the New South Wales Dept. of Parks and Wildlife , which manages the club’s lease on a large section of the course, wanted to establish a coastal walking path to the left of the fifth fairway, crossing behind the green and continuing between the sixth green and seventh tee.

When it became apparent the sixth green would have to be moved due to ‘safety issues’ Norman, along with the Greens Chairman at the time, decided this was the moment to present the club with a plan to site the green cliffside, resulting in a death-or-glory 190 yard carry from the island tee on 6. While that would make great TV for the one pro tournament held every five years at NSW, it would be a disaster for the membership having to negotiate that ocean gap for the other 259 weeks in all kinds of weather - including 30 mph headwinds.


At that point the club started to recognize nature had already covered ‘spectacular’ and they needed to focus more on ‘playable’ which lead to the question of what was the intent when building a golf course on such a wild site almost 90 years ago. I did provide my perspective directly to club management on the best way forward at that time... and I’m happy with the results so far.

Given Norman is currently selling his house in Florida for $55m right now, I’m sure you’re right - he’ll be just fine.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2021, 11:52:57 AM by Anthony Butler »
Next!

AChao

  • Karma: +0/-0

Thank you Mike!  Much appreciated!


Yes Mike!  Started looking for a place in one of those cities!  Now, need to figure-out how to join a club that I'd want to play in the city I'm looking at.


Just realized ... many cities with great courses have many clubs that are hard to join while some clubs in cities with less interesting courses just want to make sure your check doesn't bounce.




Yes.  Philly is great.  I went there for business school.  What a place for golf ... or New York or Long Island or Boston or SF and other citifies.  Unfortunately for me and others, we live in architecturally not-so-great areas.



AChao makes me realize why members at my club are aware of architecture. It’s because there are a lot of interesting courses in Philly. The competition is intense and as members play other courses they come home demanding a better course. Luckily we can compete.




But I still say that BEFORE we do something resistance to change is there but after the work is done they love it.


Move!


If you come to Philly contact me.