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Tom_Doak

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Re: TRALEE - what is the story?
« Reply #25 on: September 07, 2013, 09:17:55 AM »
I've heard from one of Arnold Palmer's young associates that they are planning some significant changes to Tralee ... that was a year and a half ago, not sure if anything's been done yet.

I will use my method of analysis from the Prairie Dunes thread to talk a bit more in depth about the course.  Note that my write-up in The Confidential Guide was based on my first visit [when the course was brand new and very raw] and on my second visit the weather turned to crap leaving us drenched, so it hasn't been very nice to me  :)


1.  I have not played a lot of Arnold Palmer courses but this is likely among the best he has designed.  It's certainly one of the best pieces of property he ever had to work with.  The budget for the original project was very modest and that prevented them from doing too much.

2.  The two holes that really turned me off the course were the 12th and 13th.  Miss either green short and left and you might never finish the hole.  And, if thirteen is playing downwind, there isn't much room to stop a shot on the green, even a good one, without running up against the back wall.  I thought they really forced these two holes into the routing for the wow factor, and yearned for a less dramatic solution.  Also, I thought that some of the inland holes on the front nine were quite lacking in interest; I suspect those are the target of the planned renovations.

3.  I always mix up the two short par-4's coming home, the 15th and 17th.  I thought one of them was a terrific hole, and the other just too severe, but I can't remember now which was which.

4.  As I said above, I have not seen the course for some time.  The two times I did see it, the beautiful third hole was closed, because the green was dead from salt spray.  Have they managed to solve this problem?  Did they move the green, as I heard they were contemplating?

5.  What makes it unique?  Well, it is a beautiful setting, everyone agrees there.  For me, what made it unique was the severity of those certain holes mentioned above, and that was a big negative.  

I am surprised to hear how playable it now is ... maturity can always help to tame native roughs, but I do wonder if there was any wind when these commenters played it.  I'm particularly worried about W_Grieve's post describing the rough at Ballybunion as major lost-ball country ... back when I played it often, the best thing about it was that it was tough as nails but you would never lose a ball on it.


« Last Edit: September 07, 2013, 09:31:24 AM by Tom_Doak »

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: TRALEE - what is the story?
« Reply #26 on: September 07, 2013, 01:12:43 PM »
Tom,

The 15th is the best hole on the course in my opinion... The 17th has a severe green site...

Ally

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: TRALEE - what is the story?
« Reply #27 on: September 07, 2013, 01:59:02 PM »
Sean it has been a long time since I Played Tralee. It must have 1993.
I remember pretty much every hole. I wanted to like the course but didn't
Until I went back over my round. I have to say that some of the holes
on holes on the front side were just average. The back nine is a different
story. I had never played anything like some of those holes. I think
the par threes were brilliant if not just down right hard. There were a
Couple of par fours that were pretty tight and required a lot of thought
and precise shot making. I have been in the area again but have not
taken the opportunity to play it again and probably won't.  I'd rather
spend the time playing Ballybunion old twice and even Cashen. I think
I'd even rather play Dingle than Tralee.   So to answer your question, i
Dont know why it doesn't  garner much love because it is not a bad course. What I
don't get is why Waterville generates so much love.

Agree re Ballb Cashen, some fun there and they throw it in with the green fee.

Count me in as a big fan of Tralee(2012 version) .  I'd put it up with Portstewart, Roses Point, and Co Louth as the 'second tier' in Ireland.
The changes I heard about sound interesting but I also heard the great short Par 4 along the bay will be reversed in direction.

When I complare Waterville with Tralee they seem to have much in common and yet the slam dunk decision does not favour the one that sits higer in the ratings.  Agree with Tommy, why the love for Waterville?
Let's make GCA grate again!

Greg Taylor

Re: TRALEE - what is the story?
« Reply #28 on: September 07, 2013, 03:57:05 PM »
I liked Tralee but felt it was somewhat disjointed in terms of the front nine and second nine.

Struggling to remember the holes now but 5-9 I seem to remember (or not!) as not being up there.

Some great holes though - if you are in the area it's a must play. To be fair it was a few years ago when I played it.

Ryan Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: TRALEE - what is the story?
« Reply #29 on: September 08, 2013, 02:46:13 AM »
The front 9 is a true bore. Although there are a couple good holes, the others are so barren that they suck the greatness out of the others and leave you wondering what happened. There are 2 holes that head toward the clubhouse (4&9 I think) that stand out in my mind as the worst which kill the whole front for me.

The back 9 could have been great but, as others have stated, they forced it in a few spots.

Still worth playing, just not a contender next to Ballybunion, La Hinch & Waterville.  

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: TRALEE - what is the story?
« Reply #30 on: September 08, 2013, 09:20:13 PM »
Tom D...at number 3 they have built a 3-B hole that is used in winter, just around the corner to the left of the current 3rd hole, and for sure the rough at BB has become more of an expedition, and we were discussing how Bobby Jones built Augusta without rough because of the angst created through repeated group searches for golf balls just off the fairway, as opposed to the thinner yet still penalizing rough at Tralee

Ryan, how can one be bored playing nine holes of golf on a beautiful bay with many centuries old ruins of castles and watch towers looming in the background. For our group the lack of the prototypical Irish Dunes on the front was a wonderful change in tempo for golf and combined with the dunes on the back nine was a home run.

Every hole on the front required a well struck golf shot, so it's hard for me to understand how folks can so easily dismiss the front nine, I understand striving for perfection but let me know when you get there, lol.

As far as BB and Lahinch...they are older course that lend themselves to hickories and the scale at Lahinch is small because they didn't need "big" in the 1800's. Erosion at both LH and BB are real concerns despite a large government effort to save the dunes.

Ed Seay had a great piece of property for sure and my understanding is that several holes were influenced by the members wanting match play styled holes with severity as opposed to more softer holes suited for medal play.

After one play at Tralee it's difficult to see why anything needs to be changed, and I would love to hear/see what the plan is?

Thanks
It's all about the golf!

RichMacafee

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: TRALEE - what is the story?
« Reply #31 on: September 08, 2013, 09:52:04 PM »
There are two possible plans to change the front 9 that are being debated.

Plan A:

The 8th gets reversed and is played as the 6th with the tee shot being down next to the castle ruin on the cliff (photo op). So it would be a dogleg right uphill par 4 with the water on the right. Green would be also perched on the cliff near where current 8th tee is (photo op)

Build a new par.3. using the land where the current 7th is . Slightly different angle, the green would have the water as a backdrop (photo op)

The 8th hole would be a down hill dogleg left, a reversed version of the current 6th.

If this happened I imagine a lot of tee shots from the new 6th would create a safety issue on the new 8th green, as people avoid hitting it in the water right.

Plan B:

Keep the current 6-8 routing, but 'heroify' the 8th tee shot by building a new tee back and left of the current tee. Would mean the tee shot has to carry over some cliff before hitting fairway (photo op)

I was at Tralee recently and agree with most of the comments here. It was an amazing day - we played with members, had a brilliant lunch and the setting is just spectacular. From a pure golfing, strategic and shot making perspective I definitely preferred Portmarnock, BB and Lahinch to Tralee. However it was one of the best days of our trip and I would go back in a heartbeat.

With 80% of their revenue coming from US green fees, you can understand that changes are being driven by photo opportunities and spectacular scenes. While not many here would agree with that, it is an economic imperative when you rely so heavily on outside revenue.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2013, 09:53:55 PM by RichMacafee »
"The uglier a man's legs are, the better he plays golf. It's almost law" H.G.Wells.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: TRALEE - what is the story?
« Reply #32 on: September 09, 2013, 02:04:05 AM »
This has been an interesting discussion and conducted without rancour - thanks members.  I guess I am in the boat of the course being too severe and contrived for me to really get behind it.  Its kind of a milder version of the Cashen - just too much, but man are these places beautiful.  But I haven't been back in many years and haven't seen the changes.  When in the area I have focused on BB and L'inch.  Unless BB cuts back its rough I doubt I shall return there - what they have turned that course into is a great shame.  So that makes Tralee a possibility, but to be honest I am more interested in seeing the new Dooks as a BB replacement.  Has Tralee significantly improved these past years or have the changes merely worked around the problems of lost ball potential for several holes?

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: TRALEE - what is the story?
« Reply #33 on: September 09, 2013, 02:49:31 AM »
There are two possible plans to change the front 9 that are being debated.

Plan A:

The 8th gets reversed and is played as the 6th with the tee shot being down next to the castle ruin on the cliff (photo op). So it would be a dogleg right uphill par 4 with the water on the right. Green would be also perched on the cliff near where current 8th tee is (photo op)

Build a new par.3. using the land where the current 7th is . Slightly different angle, the green would have the water as a backdrop (photo op)

The 8th hole would be a down hill dogleg left, a reversed version of the current 6th.

If this happened I imagine a lot of tee shots from the new 6th would create a safety issue on the new 8th green, as people avoid hitting it in the water right.

Plan B:

Keep the current 6-8 routing, but 'heroify' the 8th tee shot by building a new tee back and left of the current tee. Would mean the tee shot has to carry over some cliff before hitting fairway (photo op)

I was at Tralee recently and agree with most of the comments here. It was an amazing day - we played with members, had a brilliant lunch and the setting is just spectacular. From a pure golfing, strategic and shot making perspective I definitely preferred Portmarnock, BB and Lahinch to Tralee. However it was one of the best days of our trip and I would go back in a heartbeat.

With 80% of their revenue coming from US green fees, you can understand that changes are being driven by photo opportunities and spectacular scenes. While not many here would agree with that, it is an economic imperative when you rely so heavily on outside revenue.

Interesting but I thought 1-3 were fine but the back and forth of the next few holes were the courses weak point and more photo ops would not be high on my priorities for improving the experience.   Tralee already has a good argument for being the most wondrous looking golf 'experience' I've seen.
Let's make GCA grate again!

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: TRALEE - what is the story?
« Reply #34 on: September 09, 2013, 03:45:59 AM »
I had thought before about the possibility of reversing 6 to 8 for a few reasons, one being the awkward tee-shot on 6 with OB straight through (excellent second shot though).

On balance though, does it really need it? No one ever bemoans the 6-8 stretch, certainly since 8 was made a little more playable...

Aidan Bradley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: TRALEE - what is the story?
« Reply #35 on: September 09, 2013, 01:23:40 PM »
Tralee # 17 from the regular tee and the new tee......




John Percival

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: TRALEE - what is the story?
« Reply #36 on: September 09, 2013, 01:53:04 PM »
Mentioned Tralee in the 'diary' of Laura and my just completed Irish trip ("Irish Trip - Doonbeg Day 1). Liked the course very much. Some observations:
* loved 1,2 and 3. #1 for the 'ease' into start, without being whimpy. #2 is just awesome, though difficult so early in the round. #3 is exhilarating, and much more playable than it seems, with ample room left for bails and cut run-ups. The green conditioning at 3 was quite good.
* liked how old stone walls (at least I think they're old) have been incorporated into the holes/routing. That is mostly true at #4, where a long wall runs up the left side. Yes, 4-6 may be plainer holes, but they create a break from the drama that unfolds at 2 and 3 and before 8.
* Next time you're at the clubhouse, notice how they designed a low stone wall/curb near it that is the same style as the old walls on the course. Also, the clubhouse has the same stone face on the course side. Fabulous tie-in.
* think the tee ball at 6 is a bit awkward. Since so many holes in Ireland love crossovers, why not move 6 tees left and 9 tees right? softens the angle on 6 and adds some angle to the short 5 par
* wonder why the seventh green isn't more left, atop the dune? Neat little hole could become neat, little frightening hole.
* #8 is the lone hole with coast on the left. Further, it is an excellent opportunity for a heroic tee ball past the large, right dune at about 120 from green. Keep it just like it is
* Nine and 18 are lacking enough demand from the player, especially since they are shorter 5 pars. Would like to see some punch added to both and some mounding behind 9 to hide off-property sightlines.
* #10 is just an excellent hole
* #11 is just a difficult hole, but completely open for the entire length, though the length from the white and green tees should be shortened by about 25 yards or so.
* If #12 were listed as a 5 par, people would love it as a great risk/reward hole. Hey, who says the risk/reward cant work on a long 4 par. Hit a good, solid tee ball then smack a second over the gunge and have a relatively simple third. Or lay back to 100 yards (where there is plenty of fwy width) and face the short iron potentially ballooning into the prevailing wind. Wish they would mark the gunge gulley here, at 13 and 16 as hazards. Would simplify and speed the round
* Agree that 13 is a tough play. In the other thread, wrote that it would be much better if two bunkers were cut into the slope behind the green: almost centered and with long axis parallel to the green's back edge. Would help visually break the massive gunge view and also offer a findable and playable alternative to the plunge of death short of the green (again, the hazard designation would help. Not an unplayable, as that requires re-loading from the original spot) Could even put a drop area on top of the small dune right/short of the green. Would be a little baby, Cape shot from 50 yards or so. Cool.
* #15 is fine, but the lack of fairway near the green means little realistic success on a bashed drive, thus many will just bunt one short and wedge on. The area short and left of the green is ripe for short grass, and would still have some interesting angles for pins on the largish green
* Freakin LOVE 16. Too long from the whites (move the plate to 165), but there is much width, especially when one looks at how the left side slopes down to the green, effectively widening that side. And yes, again, 'hazard' the gunge short and make the tee at 100 yds the drop. Might have to expand it, or add one on opposite side of path.
* #17 is an outstanding tee ball option, where a gallant effort down the right will shorten the approach considerable, especially since it is normally into the prevailing wind. But would like to see the green lowered (10 feet or so), lengthened (5-7 yards) and saddled.

As it is now, Tralee is a wonderful test, and though taxing in some spots, offers options to those who think and reasonably execute. With some further tweaking, it can become a true marvel.

John Cowden

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: TRALEE - what is the story?
« Reply #37 on: September 09, 2013, 07:37:35 PM »
Th back nine at Tralee is pure Irish golf porn, and I mean that in he best way. 

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: TRALEE - what is the story?
« Reply #38 on: September 09, 2013, 08:51:49 PM »
I'm glad the town of Tralee and the couple of folks who bought the land built a golf course in such a beautiful place
It's all about the golf!

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: TRALEE - what is the story?
« Reply #39 on: December 09, 2020, 02:22:56 AM »
Graham Webster overseeing some pretty major changes on 6-8. As I understand them:


6 will have dunes built right and behind green


7 has the green completely moved left to provide more connection to the water


8 has green moved left to further overhang the water.


Ally
« Last Edit: December 09, 2020, 02:42:23 AM by Ally Mcintosh »

Dónal Ó Ceallaigh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: TRALEE - what is the story? New
« Reply #40 on: December 09, 2020, 04:03:40 PM »
I see he was the architect for the Ballybunion project:
https://teamniblick.com/project/ballybunion/

It looks like it was a massive project (rebuild of all greens), seeing some of the pictures during construction (e.g. total rebuild of 8th and surroundings). I was a bit worried when I saw the extent of the new moundings and landscaping on many of the holes, but it looks like it turned out very well. The picture of the 18th looks like an improvement on the old version with that awful massive "Sahara" bunker; not sure if the 2nd shot is still blind. It was a real let-down on such a great course; I hope the new version plays better. Maybe those that have played it since the project was concluded can comment.

I can't say anything about Tralee as I have not played it:
https://teamniblick.com/project/tralee/



Wasn't Brian Phillips a joint partner in Niblick design? He used post on this DG years ago.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2020, 04:06:39 PM by Dónal Ó Ceallaigh »

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