Do we really need any holes longer than driveable par-4’s?

[Garland Bayley]

Thomas D. -

Please define what makes a par-4 "driveable?" What distance of a hole are you referring to?  What percentage of golfers in the world do you think drive the ball more than 300 yards?


Given that the vast majority of golfers don't drive the ball more than 250 yards, for them there is no such thing as a driveable par-4. 


DT

Forward tees David, forward tees.

Besides USGA designates holes over 250 to be par 4s.

[Thomas Dai]

Thomas D. -
Please define what makes a par-4 "driveable?" What distance of a hole are you referring to?  What percentage of golfers in the world do you think drive the ball more than 300 yards?
Given that the vast majority of golfers don't drive the ball more than 250 yards, for them there is no such thing as a driveable par-4. 
DT

Forward tees David, forward tees.
Besides USGA designates holes over 250 to be par 4s.

If someone had told Old Tom late in his life that tee shots would one day be travelling as far as they are now I wonder what he would have said? Take that forward another 112 yrs with no change in ball and equipment regulations and I wonder how far some of our children’s, children’s, children will be hitting the ball?
Atb

[Doug Siebert]

I'm not convinced a course of 250-350 yard par 4s (average golfer to tour length tee range) would play all that much faster than a course of 350-450 yard par 4s, if the tee sheet was filled. Less ground to cover, but if you're basically waiting for the group ahead to play their shots onto the green before waving you on I don't see it saving much time. Whatever time it does save might be lost by golfers tempted to play driver when they shouldn't because after a while playing the course they've reached all the greens at least once, so they "know" they can do it! 

Assuming one is playing the correct tees and has a chance of reaching all the greens (even if it requires your best shot of the day) even your worst mistake isn't going to be more than 100 yards away. Isn't there value in knowing how to hit a 5i out of the rough, or playing a long shot off a crooked lie? All that goes away if the only time you ever play a club longer than a wedge is off a (hopefully) well manicured and level teebox.

[Sean_A]

I'm having nightmares from the pace of play I imagine on such a course.

Ask Jeff Warne if Goat Hill is slow.

If such a course was very busy, you might have to wait longer on some tees, but the overall time for the round should still be less, with less ground to cover.

Sunny Heath is filled with short 4s/long 3s (really doesn't matter what the par is) and it plays quick. I suspect some golfers layup on holes just to keep up pace of play.

Ciao

[Ronald Montesano]

I think that we should all strive to look like the Kardashi...


You see where I'm going, right?


A calm sea does not a strong sailor make.


Thomas, if we removed long walks between greens and tees, would that alter the nature of your questions?

[Thomas Dai]

Thomas, if we removed long walks between greens and tees, would that alter the nature of your questions?

It might do RM, closeby vrs walk-backs vrs walls-forwards etc.
Essentially a discussion point as an attempt to view matters form different perspectives.
Atb

[Forrest Richardson]

It is an interesting question. Par-4s (in excess of 350± yards) and Par-5s comprise the largest land area and turf footprint of golf courses. A par-3 may take just 2 acres and about an acre of managed turf. In contrast, 5-10 acres for the bigger par holes.

My message has been: Think differently, think smaller (less inputs, labor and water), and finally — can the game itself morph into other ways to "play" golf?

Also — FYI — most of the comments here about pace are misguided as usual. It is not about "fast", but about "flow" that we need to be concerned with. Certainly a series of "drivable par-4s" could play havoc on flow, but not if everyone would play from the correct tees. In that case, they would play "equal" in terms of a time par. It's only when you have one group waiting, but several ahead or behind where three groups would be on any given hole at one time.

[Niall C]

Forrest


Have to disagree. Personally I don't want to flow at a snails pace. I want to get on with it. Yes, thoughtful design might help but when someone is fannying about wasting time because they aren't ready, or they are marking their card on the green, or their bag is on the wrong side of the green then it doesn't really matter whether the holes flow, you're still going to be held up.


Niall

[Forrest Richardson]

Niall — I think you are describing "bad flow". Yes, it is not good when you wait. But, we all blame golfers far too often when the other four factors are much more at play — and they are so much easier to resolve. Suggested reading: OUT OF TIME by Bill Yates:

https://www.amazon.com/OUT-TIME-shows-ultimate-experience/dp/0578639815