[Niall C]

Tom


Just to get back to the OP, as much as I like Rye and it's clever use of the landscape, I think you need to visit Silloth if you haven't already to see even better use of dunes and dune ridges.


Niall

[Kalen Braley]

A few of these last posts really helped me to focus my thoughts on this topic as it relates to originality vs other criteria.

Based on how I value courses, attributes like "variety of holes" and "fun to play" are right at the top.  So if faced with a decision of choosing a course that is super fun with great variety, but perhaps not original, over the inverse (original, but not much fun with little variety), I would pick the former every day and twice on Sunday!

And I think this is why templates work well, especially when used in the right spot.  And its also why sandy sites with big hairy bunkers and rolling terrain work well.


P.S.  If a course hits all 3, fun, variety, and original, then perhaps it goes into the super elite club...

[Tom_Doak]

Kalen:


How are you going to have a course that's truly original, but doesn't have variety?

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen:

How are you going to have a course that's truly original, but doesn't have variety?

Tom,


Meant to say variety of holes, like varying lengths on each par type, where they appear in the routing, etc.

[Michael Whitaker]

Tom Doak-


I agree but the best way I’ve heard it said was from my friend Jeff Mingay who uses the phrase “sense of place” to describe courses where you could be in no other place (course) where you are at that moment. That originality and uniqueness is what breeds exceptional experiences on golf courses which tends to go hand and hand with memorable experiences.

Pat:


I've seen Gil Hanse use that phrase a lot lately, too.


It was drummed into all of us as a part of landscape architecture curriculum.  Yet, I don't often see it applied well in golf architecture.

I was not thinking about it when I did it, but one of my first and best applications of it was on the 18th at Stonewall.  Two of the founders wanted the green by the pond, or the pond extended to the green site, which I resisted because I thought putting the finishing green by a pond was starting to become a cliche.  After a month of struggling with it, I put the green as far away from the pond as I could - pushed up close to the clubhouse buildings, a complex of old Amish barns that were being restored. 

At the time, I thought it was something like the 9th at Muirfield, close to Greywalls.  But in hindsight, the barns were the one thing that really gives the property its own identity - a Pennsylvania Dutch, Amish one at that - and I managed to make that an integral part of the golf course in a way the other 17 holes didn't, quite.

I, too, feel a definite "sense of place" is important to making a golf course exceptional. Not so much that it must be unique, but that it absolutely reinforces it's location. Many courses mask their location, or create an environment that could be located almost anywhere in the world. The special courses use their "place" as an enhancement to the total experience. Obviously, this is easier to do in some locales, with a seaside course for example... and, becomes more difficult (IMHO) as one moves farther inland.

How many highly rated courses have you played where you would have no idea where you were located if you were blindfolded and dropped onto the course by helicopter. I have played too MANY!!! These courses have NO "sense of place" - you could be anywhere. This is the primary problem I have with a couple of architects' work... their holes are well designed and constructed, but most of them could be anywhere in the world with a similar environment.

[Tom_Doak]

How many highly rated courses have you played where you would have no idea where you were located if you were blindfolded and dropped onto the course by helicopter. I have played too MANY!!! These courses have NO "sense of place" - you could be anywhere. This is the primary problem I have with a couple of architects' work... their holes are well designed and constructed, but most of them could be anywhere in the world with a similar environment.

This is one of the reasons I think guys are crazy when they want to cut down all the trees on a property.  The trees help locate you in the world, whatever they are.

[John Kirk]

Wow.  I have tried twice to write a 2-3 paragraph comment about originality, and both times I managed to hit the wrong combinations of keys and poof!, it was gone.

As you get older, originality becomes more important.  If you've listened to popular music for 55 years, what you really value is something that sounds different than anything else you've ever heard.  If you've seen 50 years of ball games on TV, there's nothing new under the sun, though sometimes you will see an inspiring performance that makes you feel good.

Same with golf courses.  As you get older, the hardest thing to find is something new, different and exciting.  Another drawback of getting old and knowing a lot.

[Michael Whitaker]

Wow.  I have tried twice to write a 2-3 paragraph comment about originality, and both times I managed to hit the wrong combinations of keys and poof!, it was gone.

As you get older, originality becomes more important.  If you've listened to popular music for 55 years, what you really value is something that sounds different that anything else you've ever heard.  If you've seen 50 years of ball games on TV, there's nothing new under the sun, though sometimes you will see an inspiring performance that makes you feel good.

Same with golf courses.  As you get older, the hardest thing to find is something new, different and exciting.  Another drawback of getting old and knowing a lot.

John - this is exactly why I was so impressed with Old Macdonald. Yes, it was inspired by the courses of Macdonald and Raynor... but, I found Old Mac to be one of the most original courses I had ever played.

How many courses are there in the world? 30,000+? I've only played a small sample size, but I found Old Mac to be totally unique... can't think of another course anywhere in the world that looks or plays like it.

That's an impressive feat to create something totally unique after over 30,000 individual samples have preceded it!

[John Kirk]

Hi Mike,

What I like best about Old Macdonald is cresting that steep ridge on the 3rd hole and seeing most of the course out there in a large field.  I haven't played many "good" courses where we're all out in a field, and you can see the various groups working their way around the course.  That's how I imagine golf at Chicago Golf Club must feel like.

[Tom_Doak]

I haven't played many "good" courses where we're all out in a field, and you can see the various groups working their way around the course.  That's how I imagine golf at Chicago Golf Club must feel like.

It would be, except there are rarely more than 15-20 people playing the course!   


Muirfield is also like that.

[Michael Whitaker]

Hi Mike,

What I like best about Old Macdonald is cresting that steep ridge on the 3rd hole and seeing most of the course out there in a large field.  I haven't played many "good" courses where we're all out in a field, and you can see the various groups working their way around the course.  That's how I imagine golf at Chicago Golf Club must feel like.

John - remember this...



Two of our good buddies are no longer with us. 

[John Kirk]

Aw shucks, Mike.  It's a beautiful picture, dark blue shirts and happy, pink faces.  In recent years I've drifted away a bit, so this is a nice reminder of the many friends I've made through this website.

[Michael Whitaker]

How do or why do the Mac-Raynor-Banks courses rate so highly if "originality" is so important? ..... Just a question .... No fight.

Carl - I think one of the reasons they rank highly is that, compared to the rest of the golfing world, they are VERY unique. The first time most golfers play a M-R-B course they are blown away by "strange" angles and hard lines.

I vividly remember the first time I played a M-R-B style course... it was Yeamans Hall near Charleston, which is one of the least visually dramatic M-R-B courses. I was playing with Clemson's then football coach, Tommy West, and neither of us knew anything about the course or it's designer. We thought the course was some kind of modern avant garde creation! That night I looked it up on the internet and discovered it was built in 1925!!!!!!!!!!! Holy crap!!!!! I couldn't believe it. I found Ran's write-up of the course... which led me to the discussion group on GCA.com... and, the rest is history.

M-R-B courses are popular and highly ranked because they work. They make sense. They are logical (if that makes sense). And, they are fun to play. As Sean would say... I have a lot of time for a M-R-B course!

[Tom_Doak]

Carl - I think one of the reasons they rank highly is that, compared to the rest of the golfing world, they are VERY unique. The first time most golfers play a M-R-B course they are blown away by "strange" angles and hard lines.

Yes!


Thirty years ago, Fred Muller and I were listening to Rick Smith talk excitedly about this course he had played in Florida . . . Mountain Lake.  We had never heard of it.  [Fred even called the secretary of the Florida PGA, and she had never heard of it, either.]


Rick was so excited about the course but he had no idea who'd designed it, so I asked him, is there a really long par-3 with a deep swale right in front of the green?  And he said yes, how did you know?  Rick had never seen a Seth Raynor course before, and that helped us all put his report into perspective.

[Peter Pallotta]

I never thought of this until Michael mentioned looking up Yeamans Hall and being stunned to discover that it wasn't some modern avant-garde creation but was in fact built in 1925:
Man, for a group of staid upper-middle-class golf architects, those three cats were the hippest and most out-there dadaists of the Jazz Age!
Boy, Prohibition really put a damper on things, didn't it?

[Pete_Pittock]

Looking at Old Macdonald, what is most striking to me is that the 7th hole is not a template, but it has the most sense of place and originality. And imho it is the most strategic.

[Tom_Doak]

Looking at Old Macdonald, what is most striking to me is that the 7th hole is not a template, but it has the most sense of place and originality. And imho it is the most strategic.

Well, that's because:


1.  It was a last-minute change.


2.  The purpose of it was specifically to get you up there to overlook the ocean, which is the source of its sense of place.


3.  We couldn't think of a template to apply, to get you up there to overlook the ocean.


4.  So, we had to come up with our own concept for the hole, instead of being tied down by convention.




But, thank you for thinking that one of the few holes that we designed from scratch, is more strategic than the famous templates that are supposedly the answer to everything.

[Pete_Pittock]

Looking at Old Macdonald, what is most striking to me is that the 7th hole is not a template, but it has the most sense of place and originality. And imho it is the most strategic.

Well, that's because:
1.  It was a last-minute change.
2.  The purpose of it was specifically to get you up there to overlook the ocean, which is the source of its sense of place.
3.  We couldn't think of a template to apply, to get you up there to overlook the ocean.
4.  So, we had to come up with our own concept for the hole, instead of being tied down by convention.

But, thank you for thinking that one of the few holes that we designed from scratch, is more strategic than the famous templates that are supposedly the answer to everything.

a. semi-blind approach so you don't know the size of the target
b. can only guess where the pin is within the target (and you don't get a prior peek).
c. hard to determine bailout default, if any
d. ridge shields you from the prevailing wind so you are not sure of strength or direction
e. angled ridge   
f. great green

[Tom_Doak]

b. can only guess where the pin is within the target (and you don't get a prior peek).

You can clearly see the hole location on #7 when you come over the crest on #3, so that one is on you 

[Bill Gayne]

Tom,

I've always thought of the Old Head as an extremely unique site for a golf course and the golf course is an engineering and construction marvel. However, it doesn't sniff the top 100 by making the next 50 list. I get that people don't like Old Head for a lot of reasons not doing with the actual golf course and those factors shouldn't weigh in the rankings. I also understand that some of the interior holes are so-so but the siting is so extreme that it would overcome the interior holes.


For purposes of golf course ranking lists, is it now at a point that being on a spectacular cliff top is no longer unique and it's just what's the best four or five courses that happen to sit atop a cliff?


Bill

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