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Mike_Cirba

Moselem Springs & "Tests of Golf"
« on: April 27, 2002, 09:15:41 PM »
I recognize that the bent of most on here is to play courses and holes that are "fun", "strategic", and attainable by players of all handicap levels.  Philosophically, I agree, generally, because the alternative often seems to be courses that are either enormously long, formulaic, or penal.

However, I played a course today that has me betwixt and between and causes me to really reconsider some dearly held golfing values.

At one time, Moselem Springs (George Fazio 1964) was included in Golf Digests Top 100 courses.  The only major title held there was the 1968 US Women's Open, where Susie Berning won with a +9 score (289).  Going into the day, I assumed that it would be a long, brutal, tight test, with little interest.

However, I was wrong.  Fairways are rather wide, although the course does play reasonable long at over 6800 yards for a par of 70 on land that is rather hilly, but not overbearing.  The rough was kept short, there are only a handful of fairway bunkers, and water is minimally used.  What's more, for those of us who detest massive earth moving, I can think of few courses that fit the land better, or where holes are routed more naturally.  

Yet, you HAVE to hit the driver well, or you are looking at a day of long iron approaches to sizable greens that are perilously contoured.  You also have to hit the drives to preferred areas, dependent on pin position, which changes day to day.

I can't tell you the number of times today where I hit approaches to what seemed to be reasonably safe areas of the green, only to find that I was left with putts that broke in the range of 8 feet or more.  In a way, the challenge was similar to what is provided at ANGC, where the actual target is significantly smaller than what is obvious from the fairway.  

Moselem is one of those courses where someone could hit 14 greens and shoot 78.  The speed of the greens wasn't even up to summertime levels, yet I had very few putts that I played inside the hole.  What's more, trying to hit approaches to the proper areas of the greens, particularly with longish clubs, was challenging to say the least, and required working the ball with every club.  

I know we tend to look askance at architecture of the 60s, and probably with good reason in most cases.  Yet, I have to wonder after playing Moselem Springs whether it's not just a matter of not being up to the challenge at times, and whether our own inadequacies at being able to pull of the required shots aren't a part of it.

Tom Doak gave it a "6" in "The Confidential Guide", and seemed to have issue with a couple of long, uphill holes, as well as the fact that 3 of the par threes play downhill.  I also have to wonder if other's who have played there saw those things as drawbacks, because I have played few courses with a better set of par threes, demanding though they may be.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:04 PM by -1 »

TEPaul

Re: Moselem Springs & "Tests of Golf"
« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2002, 10:41:04 PM »
I've played Moselem a ton of times and played a bunch of state tournaments there too over the years. The general feeling I always had going into a tournament there is you have to play hard and keep the concentration up on that course to do decent. Why? Because there are some holes there that can really get you and then there are a bunch of others that you can almost fall asleep on they are so uninteresting!

And I don't even mind what MikeC said about the course that some of the par categories maybe don't have enough variety like the par 3s are downhill and the par 5s are uphill.

I think I did an analysis of this course and some of the other George Fazio courses I know about 1 1/2 years ago. My take on Moselem and most of G. Fazio's courses is if he found  good landforms for holes he built some really wonderful holes BUT on landforms that weren't that great and needed some real imagination and thought to knock something into them to hold their heads up to the rest (As Tillinghast said) G. Fazio fell as flat as a pancake, in my opinion, sometimes!

#1 is one of the blahest opening holes I know--green orientation's OK.

#2 so-so, pretty good green orientation to the fairway meaning.

#3 a really good par 3, very difficult to play well without a well exectuted tee shot.

#4 really blah.

#5 pretty exciting!

#6 blah tee to green, OK green.

#7, a green you simply cannot be above the pin at all in a tournament.

#8, sort of blah only requiring a solid tee shot and sort of straight.

#9, one of the most controversial holes I know of and certainly the most on this course. I actually like it because you really have to suck it up and figure out how to hit a decent tee shot with a shape that might make you super uncomfortable. This could be the hole that players stand around on the tee trying to figure out what to do and what to hit longer than any hole I know of!

#10, by far the best on the course--maybe even a near great hole!

#11 not bad, have to shape your tee shot and really concentrate on not trying something like skirting too close along the right corner. A good aproach you have to recalibrate distance to club selection.

#12, just a mountain climb and same problem on the green as #7. Strange back tee in a routing sense!

#13, a very good long par 3.

#14, probably one of the hardest par 4s in the district, day in and day out. Tough tee shot to play the topography and a really tough approach.

#15, not bad at all and I've seen more players just fly that green than any I can remember.

#16, #17, #18 are all pretty good holes with something to really thing about on the tee shots of the first two and the appoaches of all of them. #16 & #17 take a bit of experience to play right.

Tee shot #18 you just have to hit it solid to get within range of a tremendously strategic approach shot. Almost every tournament I've ever played there the pin was tucked on the right side and I've never dreamed of trying to go over there--just get the ball in the opening on the left even with a fairly long two putt and get out of town.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Moselem Springs & "Tests of Golf"
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2002, 06:04:52 AM »
Shivas:

Well, I sure know what part of your game you need to work on! If a tour pro or really good player hits 14 greens they will probably shoot between 66-68. Most certainly don't hit 14 greens in a round.

You can be a +2 as well as a Recon Marine if you want to my boy! Of course at some point we should probably talk about what happens on those other four holes.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Moselem Springs & "Tests of Golf"
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2002, 07:22:10 AM »
Tom,

Thanks for your thoughts on Moselem.  I would agree that on the holes without much interesting terrain, they are just sort of "there".  

However, strangely, and perhaps because of reading Kelly Moran's post earlier this week, I found George Fazio's restraint somewhat interesting, and respected that approach somewhat.  Yes, he could have "flashed" them up using bunker clusters, or what have you, but it also took some practicality to just say, "this is where this hole goes, and it's how I get from here to there", (i.e. more interesting land).  

For instance, his nephew (who ironically probably was working with his uncle on Moselem) would have definitely opted to gussy those duller holes up with any number of things, including building landforms, replicas of the Atlantic Ocean ;), or minimally (if that's a word I can use), giant sequoia pines.  

It's also interesting to note the paucity of bunkers at Moselem, at least in the fairway.  Instead, once again, he used natural landforms that seem to give advantage or not depending on tee shot placement.

But, the greens!  Tom, did I just face a set of particularly difficult hole placements yesterday, or a particularly poor day with the putter, because I watched putts on some greens swing 6 feet or more?  What's more, in surveying the greens, there seemed to be any number of dastardly positions to put the hole, and those positions definitely had an impact on where you wanted to be on your approach, as well as where you wanted to place your drive.  

They were generally putting pretty slowly, and I'd be afraid to play them mid-summer with the speed up.  As I'm sure you know, because of the hilly terrain, putts (and chips) playing against the general slope also putted much slower than they appeared and shots and putts with the slope rolled forever.  

I just walked away from Moselem trying to think of the last course I played where hole location so influenced thinking all the way back to the tee.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Moselem Springs & "Tests of Golf"
« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2011, 07:40:21 AM »
I thought I'd bring back this thread as Moselem Springs hosts the PA Open this year:

http://readingeagle.com/article.aspx?id=324703

Another George Fazio product in PA hosting a big event as Hershey East recently hosted the the PGA Club Pro in June.
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Moselem Springs & "Tests of Golf"
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2011, 12:53:29 PM »
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Moselem Springs & "Tests of Golf"
« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2014, 01:46:09 PM »
Rather than start a new thread on Moselem Springs, a course I played yesterday, I thought this older thread with posts by two prominent former GolfClubAtlas'ers should be bumped.

I really liked Moselem.  They appear to be instituting a tree management program, which would be fantastic if true.

Below is a link to my photo album (lighting early on not outstanding, but some pics are pretty good, IMHO):

http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/albums/moselemsprings/
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Moselem Springs & "Tests of Golf"
« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2014, 03:40:00 PM »
I remember the course fondly from my one visit way back when.  And a "6" on the Doak scale is nothing to sneeze about.  If I'd rated it higher it would probably still be in the top 100 courses in the U.S., and I don't think it quite belongs there.  But maybe it did before the last 25 years of golf course construction.

Jim Sherma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Moselem Springs & "Tests of Golf"
« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2014, 04:17:09 PM »
Joe - thanks for another nice tour. I've never played Moselem and this is the best look I've had of it. I played Hershey East, another George Fazio, this morning and that course always makes me think about how honest the challenge is in that I never feel like the course didn't give me back just what I deserved, for better or mostly worse. Moselem is clearly cut from the same cloth although it looks like the greens are not pushed up from the surrounds quite as much and consequently you can see much more of the green surfaces on your approach shots. It also appears that the greens might be somewhat more receptive with less sever roll-offs on the edges although the camera might be flattening some of the slopes in the photos.

On a more general note, George Fazio's courses are clearly challenging and most of that challenge comes from greens that are not particularly receptive and difficult to chip to and putt on once your there. The effective landing areas on the greens are generally a small subset of the total surface. Tee to green they appear to be pretty forgiving other than the advantage of having a particular angle into the green that is advantageous. All of these attributes should be endearing yet I don't think that is the case in practice.

I know that our Fazio course is not beloved by many for various reasons. I don't think it is because of the scores that they shoot per se, but rather how they end up bleeding shots around the greens as opposed to lost balls and/or forced carries. It seems like golfers would rather fail at something obviously difficult as opposed to something that is difficult but does not appear to be. Being on the wrong side of the fairway and leaving a very difficult shot because the hook lie you have makes it almost impossible to flight a shot that will hold the green is not a challenge that most players understand or really want to deal with as part of their recreation. Furthermore the type of difficulty around the greens really reveals a players inadequacies at the seemingly easiest part of the game and makes for a very trying day if your game is not pretty tight.

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Moselem Springs & "Tests of Golf"
« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2014, 07:11:21 PM »
There was an interesting Facebook post about MS last week - some concern about newly planted pear trees.

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Moselem Springs & "Tests of Golf"
« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2014, 08:27:51 PM »
I'm going to check on the tree program KBM and report back.  :)
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Moselem Springs & "Tests of Golf"
« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2014, 09:01:29 PM »
What makes holes 6 thru 8 not your favorite, KBM?
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Moselem Springs & "Tests of Golf"
« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2021, 02:45:14 PM »
Now for sale !!!!




Set amongst a scenic natural setting, Moselem is a peaceful private club featuring 18 holes of championship golf designed by George Fazio, and his nephew Tom, who at 18 was beginning his renowned career and has been back in recent times to celebrate Moselem Milestones. The course was host to the 1968 US Women’s Open and countless local, regional and state championships.

2.35M





https://www.leisurepropertiesgroup.com/golf-listing-313/
« Last Edit: August 28, 2021, 02:48:11 PM by Steve_ Shaffer »
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Moselem Springs & "Tests of Golf"
« Reply #13 on: August 28, 2021, 06:05:30 PM »
I know the course well.  15-20 minutes from me.  Shot 70 in a GAP match there a few months ago.  It is a very good test of golf and with the right attention has the potential to be a great golf course as well.  Yes there is/can be a difference.  I played with two guys yesterday at Lehigh who know who might be looking at it.  Time will tell what happens.

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Moselem Springs & "Tests of Golf"
« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2021, 08:02:36 PM »
Excellent website with a video of Tony Leadora's  interviews of head pro, superintendent AND Tom Fazio:


https://www.moselemgolf.com/home
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Mike_Trenham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Moselem Springs & "Tests of Golf"
« Reply #15 on: August 29, 2021, 07:16:55 AM »
https://news.google.com/articles/CBMiSmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LnJlYWRpbmdlYWdsZS5jb20vMjAyMS8wOC8yNi9tb3NlbGVtLXNwcmluZ3MtZ29sZi1jbHViLWZvci1zYWxl0gFPaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cucmVhZGluZ2VhZ2xlLmNvbS8yMDIxLzA4LzI2L21vc2VsZW0tc3ByaW5ncy1nb2xmLWNsdWItZm9yLXNhbGUvYW1wLw?hl=en-US&gl=US&ceid=US%3Aen


Sorry for the size of the link.


Here is an interesting article from the Reading Eagle News.  I believe the Quier family or descendants thereof still own both the paper and the golf course.


It states that they are open to creative offers including ones that keep them as part owners. It really seems they want to have this remain a golf course.  I am confident this has not been a cash cow for the Quier family.


Rumor is they already have received two offers.
Proud member of a Doak 3.

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