Original MacKenzie Course Faces Destruction!

[Duncan Cheslett]

It would seem that in Blackpool 11 holes of the course lie within Stanley Park, an area that is kept for the recreation of the people of Blackpool in perpetuity.


The other 7 holes lie outside the park on a piece of land bought specifically by the Council at the behest of Dr MacKenzie in order to allow 18 holes to be built.


It is this piece of land that is under threat. The part of the course within Stanley Park would appear to be safe as if not a golf course it could not be developed for anything else other than an open space.

[Duncan Cheslett]

Hot off the press...


https://www.blackpoolgazette.co.uk/news/politics/council/45m-attractions-plan-unveiled-for-blackpool-s-stanley-park-golf-course-site-1-9963765

[Ryan Coles]

Same people arguing for 9 hole venues in a recent thread are the same people arguing this should remain 18.


Blackpool North Shore is on tee off times for £20.


With litter all over the streets and the roads full of pot holes, remind me again what the debate is?


None of you had heard of this course yesterday, let alone played it. Now you’re signing away for more of other people’s money to be utilised on it.

[Garland Bayley]

It is a lovely romantic view but. The law of the jungle is the strongest survive. Market conditions have dictated that all things considered not enough people like it over the other courses.
...

The market demonstrates the value of single use plastic. The market demonstrates the value of pouring CO2 into the atmosphere. All hail the market!

You heathens that don't worship the market can rot in hell!

[Bernie Bell]

Mackenzie himself said that municipal golf can/should be profitable and is a great defense against the rising tide of Bolshevism (which may now be at its highest water mark since he said it in 1933). 

[Bernie Bell]

Interesting. 
"Appointing Colin Jenkins, GRN Consulting (www.golfconsult.co.uk), as Golf Development Consultant, and in consultation with the Golf Club Committee Representatives, HIP plans to install state of the art practice facilities, including the best technology from TopTracer and Power Tees. HIP will also redevelop the remaining 11 holes to offer a 9-hole course with an emphasis on 6 of those holes to offer a unique Golf Sixes Venue, which will be aimed at increasing participation and retaining existing golfers. Development of the clubhouse and member / visitor facilities remains within the wider plans."

[Ryan Coles]

It is a lovely romantic view but. The law of the jungle is the strongest survive. Market conditions have dictated that all things considered not enough people like it over the other courses.
...

The market demonstrates the value of single use plastic. The market demonstrates the value of pouring CO2 into the atmosphere. All hail the market!

You heathens that don't worship the market can rot in hell!

Straw man.


Stick to the issue.


This is about municipal golf in a country with oversupply of inexpensive golf opportunities whilst the same councils are struggling to fund the basics.

[Duncan Cheslett]

I reserve judgement until I have visited and played the course, which I plan to do in the next few days.


However, it is beginning to dawn on me that nine really good holes combined with a state of the art practice and teaching facility is probably a better introduction to golf for the good burghers of Blackpool than eighteen ordinary holes...




... not to mention better value for money for taxpayers.


Those making the biggest noise - and with the most to lose - are the members of the private club linked to the municipal course. They face losing their subsidised annual fees for an eighteen hole course.


I’m not sure that they are the people intended to benefit from municipal golf  provision.

[Niall C]

Duncan


You seem to assume that the members of the club get a subsidised rate relative to non-members. Do you know that to be the case ? I looked into joining a muni club near me and the club fee was small but you paid the normal greenfees that everyone else paid.


Niall

[Duncan Cheslett]

Duncan


You seem to assume that the members of the club get a subsidised rate relative to non-members. Do you know that to be the case ? I looked into joining a muni club near me and the club fee was small but you paid the normal greenfees that everyone else paid.


Niall

Niall,


Membership is £115 pa and a 7 day course season ticket is £520


http://www.blackpoolparkgc.co.uk/memberships.html


I've no idea if a season ticket is available to non members as the Council don't seem to have a website for the course!


The only comparable private club in Blackpool is the aforementioned Blackpool North Shore. 7 day membership is £1020 with a joining fee (loan) of £620.

http://www.bnsgc.com/page.aspx?pid=39217

No wonder the members of Blackpool Park are annoyed!

[Ryan Coles]

I note they have sky tv and BT sport.


How many of the people funding it have this luxury in their homes?



The signatories probably think they are signing to save some rustic place with an honesty box.


Truth is this operated as a £15 per round venue that can’t wash its own face.


Not trying to be uncaring, but the venue is ripe for what’s happening.


Credit to the council for doing the right thing by the council tax and rate payers.

[Duncan Cheslett]

Ryan,


To be fair, the clubhouse is rented from the Council by the club and then run as a commercial operation without subsidy. They have a lot of Social Members who use the clubhouse as their local watering hole completely independent of the golf course. This is a model that perhaps more private golf clubs might do well to follow!


The fact that the club appears to be thriving on non-golfing activities lends credence to the idea that the course would be viable as a nine-holer.




It has to be said that there is a certain geographic as well as financial logic for reducing the course to nine or twelve holes within Stanley Park itself. Currently the course leaves the park for seven holes which snake around the back of Victoria Hospital giving a disconnected feel. This is the land that has been earmarked for development.


Stanley Park - Google Maps by duncan cheslett, on Flickr

I understand on good authority that the disconnected holes are the least distinguished on the course anyway.

I intend to have a look for myself on Monday.

[Adrian_Stiff]

This still looks like a classic case of over supply and under demand. There is a course next door that you can join on the rotten playmoregolfscheme, and several others on google earth within a few miles.


A chap called Duncan Cheslett is my trusty north/west England educator on just how grim it is up these parts. I quote him often.

[Duncan Cheslett]

This still looks like a classic case of over supply and under demand. There is a course next door that you can join on the rotten playmoregolfscheme, and several others on google earth within a few miles.


A chap called Duncan Cheslett is my trusty north/west England educator on just how grim it is up these parts. I quote him often.

It's not just grim Adrian, it's completely bonkers at times!


My wife is thinking of joining a nice club down the road from us - they have a thriving Ladies' Section. Membership is £1200 per year.


We're going for a game there tomorrow (Sunday). On Golf Now it is £14 a round.


Do the math!

[Thomas Dai]

Purely out of interest how many UK muni's did MacKenzie design?
Blackpool, Altrincham, Hazlehead/Aberdeen. Others?
Thanks in advance.
atb

[Mike Sweeney]

Extra millions to councils will help save lives that over-rides saving a piece of art cherished for a few miserables that think their view is more important.

The Gross Clinic was sold for $68 million by Thomas Jefferson University and it literally saved lives as it funded a Medical University and its medical students in Philadelphia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gross_Clinic



We have family history at Jefferson and I thought that Jefferson made the right decision at that insane price.

This is an interesting thread, and my argument is that the locals have undervalued their asset. I believe that was the purpose of the original post.

We have a "Feature Interview" this month that says how hard it is to maintain a 9 hole course in Upper England.

I agree that this conversation should be driven by economics. MacKenzie's pull in a premium.

[Duncan Cheslett]

Purely out of interest how many UK muni's did MacKenzie design?
Blackpool, Altrincham, Hazlehead/Aberdeen. Others?
Thanks in advance.
atb

The courses MacKenzie designed as municipals were;

Temple Newsam, Leeds (1 x 18 hole, 1 x 9 hole)
Leeds Municipal (Roundhay Park) Leeds
Sheffield Municipal (Tinsley Park) Sheffield
Douglas Municipal, Isle of Man
 Hazlehead Municipal, Aberdeen
Stanley Park, Blackpool

In addition, the MacKenzie designed private Timperley GC in Cheshire was later sold to the local Council and became Altrincham Municipal.

[Duncan Cheslett]

This is an interesting thread, and my argument is that the locals have undervalued their asset. I believe that was the purpose of the original post.

Times change. Stanley Park and its golf course was built to help attract middle class visitors to what was at the time the UK's premier resort. The park is still the jewel in the crown of what has became in the main a horribly tawdry and run-down seaside town of some 140,000 residents.

We have a "Feature Interview" this month that says how hard it is to maintain a 9 hole course in Upper England.

Robin Down's excellent piece is specifically about remote rural 9 holers in the far north of England and in Scotland. A municipal 9 hole course in an urban area undoubtedly faces challenges, but they are rather different ones.

I agree that this conversation should be driven by economics. MacKenzie's pull in a premium.

In the north of England MacKenzie courses are fairly thick on the ground. Only the more well-preserved and/or celebrated examples of his work are able to command a premium. His name alone adds little commercial value unless the product is up to scratch.

[Thomas Dai]

The courses MacKenzie designed as municipals were;
Temple Newsam, Leeds (1 x 18 hole, 1 x 9 hole)
Leeds Municipal (Roundhay Park) Leeds
Sheffield Municipal (Tinsley Park) Sheffield
Douglas Municipal, Isle of Man
Hazlehead Municipal, Aberdeen
Stanley Park, Blackpool
In addition, the MacKenzie designed private Timperley GC in Cheshire was later sold to the local Council and became Altrincham Municipal.

Thanks Duncan.
atb

[James Reader]

The courses MacKenzie designed as municipals were;
Temple Newsam, Leeds (1 x 18 hole, 1 x 9 hole)
Leeds Municipal (Roundhay Park) Leeds
Sheffield Municipal (Tinsley Park) Sheffield
Douglas Municipal, Isle of Man
Hazlehead Municipal, Aberdeen
Stanley Park, Blackpool
In addition, the MacKenzie designed private Timperley GC in Cheshire was later sold to the local Council and became Altrincham Municipal.

Thanks Duncan.


atb

Looks like another one (or two) on the list is/are under threat.  Leeds Council is looking at turning the Temple Newsam courses into a cycling park and space for events.  A report says it’s costing them over £200k a year to run the courses for just 115 season tickets and  6k pay and play tickets last year.


Temple Newsam isn’t far from me but I’ve never played there.  I’ve no idea how much of Mackenzie is left.

[Jon Wiggett]

James,


the main course (Lord Irwin) is a solid layout and was in decent nick whenever I played it back in the late '80s. The second course (Lady Dorothy) was shorter but had by far the more interesting holes on it though never in as good condition. Of the two, I would take the slightly rougher condition of the Lady Dorothy course  though I believe it is now 9 holes not 18.


There was still a lot of the original features there at that time.