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John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Unskilled vs Highly Skilled
« on: November 14, 2018, 09:05:52 AM »
When it comes to great architecture who is the real villain? I'm personally a bit tired of playing slow greens because some guy that won't take time to practice decides to drop a few thousand to play near the ocean. Why in what is mostly a private enterprise does the majority get to rule? Come on, we all love a course built for the best over a huckabilly hole in one executive track.


How could architecture improve if we didn't cater to the misfits?

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Unskilled vs Highly Skilled
« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2018, 09:36:39 AM »
When it comes to great architecture who is the real villain? I'm personally a bit tired of playing slow greens because some guy that won't take time to practice decides to drop a few thousand to play near the ocean. Why in what is mostly a private enterprise does the majority get to rule? Come on, we all love a course built for the best over a huckabilly hole in one executive track.


How could architecture improve if we didn't cater to the misfits?


No more cart paths.

Because no more carts.
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Unskilled vs Highly Skilled
« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2018, 09:45:08 AM »
Huh? 

If the majority rules, how is gca catering to the misfits?  Or is the majority composed mostly of misfits?

You may wish to be reminded that none other than your architecture guru, Dr. Klein, once astutely observed that commercial success (demand, popular approval) and critical acclaim are two very different things.

Learning modesty to trust and defer to our betters is part of the evolutionary process in the 21st Century.  And if the industry is killed in the process, it did not deserve to exist (I can't imagine golf in Texas, Florida and any number of states surviving without the golf cart).

Peter Pallotta

Re: Unskilled vs Highly Skilled
« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2018, 09:55:40 AM »
When you say 'highly skilled', who are you referring to?

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Unskilled vs Highly Skilled
« Reply #4 on: November 14, 2018, 10:05:39 AM »
Where are you playing slow greens?
and in my experience it's the chops that gush about fast greens as it gives them a talking point and a chance to brag about their course or tell you they would've beat you if their greens were their "usual" fast pace or if the greens at this goat track were as fast as their home course.


and I'd dispute that the majority doesn't demand a course "Built for the best" cuz they're tromping up to the now required multiple tees to play their favorite yardage (and that ain't the course "built for the best")
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Unskilled vs Highly Skilled
« Reply #5 on: November 14, 2018, 10:44:38 AM »
When you say 'highly skilled', who are you referring to?


Anyone who can break 85 on a tour set up from 6500 yds.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Unskilled vs Highly Skilled
« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2018, 11:10:37 AM »
When you say 'highly skilled', who are you referring to?


Anyone who can break 85 on a tour set up from 6500 yds.


And what % of the golfing population is that?  Maybe 10%?


Its kinda funny Barney you push for the game to cater to the low % of skilled players, which would make golf more difficult and chase many away...but then turn around and make the absurd claim that singles are killing the game.


Or maybe you just trolling GCA.com again, which if true, carry on!  ;)

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Unskilled vs Highly Skilled
« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2018, 11:28:42 AM »
Albeit trolling, there is something to be discussed in all of this. First, when  the term “great architecture” gets used, it is subjective, and influenced by personal preference. If JK wants fast greens as a priority, then he should go where that is the courses’ hallmark. I would prefer slower greens, as long as the architecture and the set-up made it interesting, i.e. pins cut on slopes, edges and corners. And, as my friend Jeff Warne points out often, let’s keep the short-cut around greens to appropriate places, not on every damn green complex. But, see, those are my personal preferences....See Peter P.’s quote on the bottom of my post for more insight.....


We have debates on playability/ difficulty issues all the time when designing/ building.While there is a big variation in abilities to hit the middle of the club and having it pointed the right way, I am coming to the conclusion that the wider gap between differently skilled golfers has more to do with clubhead speed. That’s why JK prefers fast greens...he can hit the ball hard enough to impart spin, which makes approach shots and recovery shots more possible. The low clubhead speed golfer (who cares why? It may not be plausible to “fix” that in aged/ handicapped/ etc. golfers) has a whole different set of challenges than JK, and all fast clubhead speed golfers do(es), but his post(and many architects) don’t take that into account.


Add in the theories about why better putters would/ could separate themselves from the field if the greens were slower to the discussion as well. Interesting topic for a troll-job.

" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Unskilled vs Highly Skilled
« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2018, 11:57:37 AM »

Seems like a reasonable question. PVGC, Oakmont, and WF-W were designed for highly skilled players.




Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Unskilled vs Highly Skilled
« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2018, 01:44:05 PM »
JM Evensky: and think how long ago those courses were designed, and they are still very difficult.

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Unskilled vs Highly Skilled
« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2018, 11:34:46 PM »
 8) Jaka,


If you were highly skilled, you'd be able to make a full turn on those slow putts, instead of relying only on that 6 inch stroke  :o 
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

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