[Jim Hoak]

Have you ever seen a more artificial feature on a good golf course than the pond in front of the green on the Eighteenth Hole at Torrey Pines?  Looks like someone built a swimming pool there.  Totally out of place, manufactured, garish.  No relation to anything else on the hole.  Just put there to make the hole harder without regard to the continuity of the hole.  Makes my teeth hurt.

[Mark Kiely]

Conversely, what a terribly boring hole it would be without it.

[John Kavanaugh]

Please note that it is blind when playing the course. It's only ugly on TV.

[George Pazin]

Please note that it is blind when playing the course. It's only ugly on TV.

That's a really interesting observation. How obvious is the back to front slope that cuts through the green?

[John Kavanaugh]

My recollection of playing the 18th consists of asking my playing partners why are there yellow stakes up by the green. When they told me there was a pond in front I laid back to 130 yds or so. From that distance the back to front slope was moot. It was what it was.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Yes, it is blind.  Why my mentor, the recently passed Dick Nugent, ALWAYS insisted we draw a cross section to check visibility.


I am always surprised at the number of architects who don't.  My only bigger surprise is the number or architects who don't understand how to size drain pipes, although that is neither here nor there.


As big a fan as I am of cross sections to avoid those kind of design flubs, I recall working with Wadsworth on a project and the foreman told me he had checked the primary, secondary and tertiary sight lines and they all checked out.  I was embarrassed to have to ask him, but he used those terms for along the centerline of play, from tee straight to green (on a dogleg) and from approach area to green.  Yes, we check those too, but I never had a name for them.

[Terry Lavin]

The pond is pretty cheesy in a muni sorta way, but the course looked great on tv. A lot of infinity green looks and some multiple fairway vistas. I haven’t played there in a long time but it seems like they’ve cut down a lot of trees.

[Cal Seifert]

I'd rather look at approach shots over the pond instead of watching 75% of the televised action being putts.  Yawn.

[jeffwarne]

aesthetically pleasing?
no
Interesting hole?
yes


The pond doesn't look any more fake than the bunkers, which work as well.


I enjoy watching Torrey Pines-and I like the playability of it-yet good driving is rewarded-especially with the firm greens and tucked pins

[Tom Bacsanyi]

In other news JB Holmes is all f--king time.  Futzes around for 5 minutes plus to play his 2nd into 18, ridiculous to the point that the gallery started getting on him, then duffs his LAYUP into the left rough.  Still makes birdie.  Problem is, Day was already in 2 shots better.  WHAT WAS THE DECISION, EAGLE WAS HIS ONLY CHANCE FOR A PLAYOFF.  Pull the 3 wood and go for it, THERE IS NO DECISION!!!


GET ON WITH IT!


The pond is awful, but I'm not sure how you could influence the strategy of the hole without it.  A faux barranca?  A deep cross bunker?

[Cal Seifert]

The pond is awful, but I'm not sure how you could influence the strategy of the hole without it.  A faux barranca?  A deep cross bunker?

PGA Tour overlooks hole strategy.  Strategy to them is that 17 yard wide landing strip sometimes called fairway.

[Jim Nugent]

I think the pond makes the hole strategy-wise, for the pros.  Not only for their 2nd and 3rd shots, but any chips from behind the green as well.  Without the pond it might play as a par 4.3 for them, with few decisions to make. 

I played there once back in 1970, before the pond.  My memory is I simply hit my drive and second shot as hard as I could. 

[Mike Schott]

It's the only feature that gives the hole any interest. So much so that it's an icon right or wrong. Otherwise it's a flat hole with a two tiered green. Contrast it with 15 at ANGC which uses the sloping fairway to determine the strategy.


When I played the course I was far more impressed by other holes like 3, 4, 6 and 13.

[Tom_Doak]

It's the only feature that gives the hole any interest. So much so that it's an icon right or wrong. Otherwise it's a flat hole with a two tiered green.

So you're saying the only way to give a flat hole any interest is to build a pond in front of the green?

[John Kavanaugh]

Noren hitting three wood off the tee during the playoff was one of the more interesting strategic choices I have ever seen on tour.

[Kalen Braley]

For me, its more of a question of...


without blowing up the hole and starting over, (of which I'm convinced something better could be built).....if you only had enough to change one thing what would it be?


Replace the pond with a nasty nest of bunkers?
Rebuild the green?
Reconfigure the fairway bunkering?


While I too agree the pond is hideous...it sure seems to give the Pros a fit and get them thinking of how to play the hole and makes for some pretty good drama on the finishing hole.  There really are lots of ways for these guys to play that hole and that pond prompts decisions way back to the tee....

[Pete_Pittock]

Historically on the Tour it is a billabong, not a pond.

[Kalen Braley]

Historically on the Tour it is a billabong, not a pond.

Pete,


Fine pun for the Aussie Bruce Devlin's 10 in '75, except ignorance stuck again, not knowing what a billabong actually is! 

[Brad Wilbur]

I would vote with the "barranca" to replace the pond.  While it may not be visible from a distance, it does come into view as one approaches the green.  I have played there less than a dozen times over the years, but even the first time I saw it (in my pre-GCA time), it looked dreadful.  It doesn't resemble anything else on the 36 hole property.

[Mike Schott]

It's the only feature that gives the hole any interest. So much so that it's an icon right or wrong. Otherwise it's a flat hole with a two tiered green.

So you're saying the only way to give a flat hole any interest is to build a pond in front of the green?

Not what I'm saying Tom. I'm saying there are no other interesting features on this specific hole to dictate strategy.

[Jay Mickle]

Enjoy watching more it having played it.
The pond reminds me of the artificiality of the meandering burn on the 18th at The European Club.

[Mark_Fine]

I was contemplating this same thing the other day.  The pond, whether we like it or not, does add some drama to an otherwise bland hole.  If you think about it, how does it differ from the creek in front of #13 at Augusta or the pond in front of #15 at Augusta?  No one complains about those two water features and the pond on #15 is not exactly natural looking.  Bunkers replacing any of those hazards on any of these three holes would "DRAMATICALLY" change the play on those holes for almost all players (especially the pros).  Ugly as it may be and like it or not, the water serves a purpose.  It is a hazard that adds fear and tests/changes decision making.   

[Matthew Petersen]

I would vote with the "barranca" to replace the pond.  While it may not be visible from a distance, it does come into view as one approaches the green.  I have played there less than a dozen times over the years, but even the first time I saw it (in my pre-GCA time), it looked dreadful.  It doesn't resemble anything else on the 36 hole property.

Old version of the North had two really ugly ponds on the 17th hole that looked not unlike the one on 18. After Weiskopf's work, those are gone.


I don't know the solution. The pond on 18 is pretty hideous but a course that gets an annual Tour even and majors is within its rights to be one of the few that actually does consider the pros and no bunker is going to scare them the way the pond does. Not sure a barranca would either, unless it was filled with vegetation. That too would probably be quite contrived, as it's not a natural feature. I suppose you could tie it into the portion of the canyon that runs along the 6th hole and make the tee shot on 7 play over it?

[Charles Lund]

I've spent a lot of time in San Diego since 2001 and played the South Course at Torrey Pines close to 30 times, mostly since the 2008 U.S. Open.


I don't have the length to go for the green on 18 in two.  The hole offers many of the same driving challenges as many of the holes, due to sloped fairways, narrow width, difficult rough, trees to the right, and fairway bunkering.


For those players who are constrained by lack of distance and play it as a three shot hole, the contour of the fairway brings rough into play on the left, making the line of the second shot important. So both the drive and second shot require precision.  The second shot requires a decision about club selection because of water in the area near the green, to insure the layup stays dry.


Other par fives, such as #6, 9, and 13 have contouring challenges which require accurate placement of a second shot for those playing holes as three shotters.  The left rough at the bottom of the hill on 13 can ruin an otherwise well struck layup shot. So I think #18 is similar to other par fives.


Torrey South is a muni course. I personally dislike courses which use water hazards to excess.  But I will give Torrey South a pass.  It might be possible to beautify the water hazard, but functionally, it would have the same result.  The playoff on Monday was determined by a second shot that came up a couple of yards short.  Kyle Stanley showed another way in which the hazard can come into play.


I accept that most reviews of the course  by architectural purists tend to rate it low.  I doubt that the lower ranking is overly influenced by an unattractive water hazard on #18. On the other hand, there are a limited number of courses where major tournaments are held that are readily accessible.


Charles Lund

[Jeremy Blumberg]

Having played the course with no grandstand, and no spectators, I would say that the pond on 18 does not seem so bad or gimmicky. In fact, I was worried the first time I played Torrey Pines that the whole experience would seem like an artificial brute of a golf course. But, happily, I must say it did not leave me with that opinion.


As others have pointed out, the pond truly does provide the strategic thinking challenge of this hole. Most amateurs, even if they have chosen to play from an appropriate tee, will have a mid to short length third shot that will need to contend with that pond.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()