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Joe Hancock

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Re: Strategy of additional bunkers
« Reply #25 on: February 26, 2017, 08:04:41 PM »
It occurs to me, as I read all of these well thought out repsonses, that the element of aptitude must enter the equation at some point. In general, when thinking about bunkers(and all course features) we must get beyond the idea that everyone hits their shots in the air to the appropriate distance. In that light, I would say nearly all bunkers have some strategic  merit, to someone. So when Tom uses ANGC as an example(and a great one at that) we tend to view the strategy there through the lens of what we witness during the Masters, i.e. How the pros play it. But, if my dad, at 82 years old and rolling his 150 yard shots with a 3 wood....well, how does that change the "strategy" of the minimal bunkering at ANGC? Or, does that shot type even matter anymore to those who design? If you think about older courses pre-irrigation, it used to matter....and we still revere courses from those days...


Peter, you mentioned(somewhere) a cross-bunker 170 yards or so off the tee, and didn't see its value. But might it be for the "strategic" enjoyment of others who fall into a different level of skill? Not that a course should provide a steady diet of that type of placement.....



" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Strategy of additional bunkers
« Reply #26 on: February 26, 2017, 08:07:47 PM »
Yes, but, Augusta for the Masters is rarely firm enough for lines to make much of a difference to pros so long as they are in ths short stuff.  Besides, why do we consistently harp back to pros in these discussions?  Bunkers...if anything...are more strategic for hacks like me because I have to worry about the next shot...I am not nearly good enough to recover from tough spots even in less than firm conditions.  Firm conditions only serve to heighten my short-comings...which I gladly welcome.  The strange thing is, if bunkers aren't as "strategic" as they could be, that is, they aren't useful/conducive to though provoking play, why are they employed by archies in such numbers?  How is it that we can have so many courses with 75+ bunkers and barely a hole without sand?  I find it bewildering especially as most of the time on most courses sand isn't attractive....its just "expected".


Ciao
« Last Edit: February 27, 2017, 06:03:34 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Peter Pallotta

Re: Strategy of additional bunkers
« Reply #27 on: February 26, 2017, 10:38:08 PM »
Joe  - I've always been told that I should play the right set of tees for my skill level, and so I do. But if playing the right set of tees is to have any meaning (and fun) then if on one Par 4 the trouble is 220-230 yards from the tee, on another straight-ahead Par 4 trouble 170 yards from the tee, no matter how stylish that trouble may be, doesn't make much sense for me, nor is it much fun. Perhaps that hole usually plays into the wind and I just caught it on a non-prevailing day...
Peter

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Strategy of additional bunkers
« Reply #28 on: February 26, 2017, 11:26:03 PM »



As to TD's comments, and again after reading Broadies book, statistically, it turns out avoiding the hazard is the proven way to lower your score on a hole.  (with 2 stroke penalties played as a must avoid, 1 stroke penalties as a should avoid, but allow less margin for error, and easy hazards more of a fire away proposition)



Jeff:


Sorry but I think you are doing the math wrong on that one, if I understand the study you're talking about.  [I have not read it.] 


Sure, if you compare recovery strokes from a bunker with recovery strokes from the rough on the other side, the bunker comes out higher.  But that misses the point.  If the bunker causes players to aim away from the hole in order to avoid it, then the more fractions of a stroke they're giving up on each of their good shots.  And, of course, the better the player, the more good shots are going to a place where they are no longer making a birdie putt.  So that can result in a HIGHER overall score than just aiming at the flag, making birdie more often, and taking your medicine when you do get in the bunker [aka the vintage Tom Watson, I-can-get-up-and-down-anyway approach].


The one thing I learned from Mr. Dye about great players that really stuck with me was how conservative they are.  If you give them a safe side, they'll usually hedge over that way.  I think that was probably more true for Jack Nicklaus' generation [and Jack himself] than Rory McIlroy and his ilk, but I still think it happens ... and, realistically, I'm not building courses for Rory anyway, only for guys who dream they are anywhere near that good.




Read the book and we'll talk......
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Strategy of additional bunkers
« Reply #29 on: February 27, 2017, 06:06:41 AM »
Joe  - I've always been told that I should play the right set of tees for my skill level, and so I do. But if playing the right set of tees is to have any meaning (and fun) then if on one Par 4 the trouble is 220-230 yards from the tee, on another straight-ahead Par 4 trouble 170 yards from the tee, no matter how stylish that trouble may be, doesn't make much sense for me, nor is it much fun. Perhaps that hole usually plays into the wind and I just caught it on a non-prevailing day...
Peter

All bunkers can't be in play for all golfers all the time.  In fact, I think less than half are on any given day.  Its impossible for an archie to build enough sets of tees to accomodate all where hazards are concerned, and quite frankly it is stupid to try.  Just as people ask who said all holes should be reachable for all in regulation...the same is true for bunkers...why should one expect all bunkers to be in play for them? The situation you describe is lovely argument against set daily tees.  Why not play the tees which make sense for you on any given day.  What does it matter if you use three different sets of tees in a round?  The concept of friendly games used for handicapping has a lot to answer for.

Ciao
« Last Edit: February 27, 2017, 06:09:51 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Strategy of additional bunkers
« Reply #30 on: February 27, 2017, 09:04:43 AM »
I think most architects know that bunkers can play totally different on paper (when they are first drawn up in an architect’s plans) than they do in real practice.   If you have ever watched a wide variety of golfers play a golf hole (any golf hole) you will understand what I am talking about!  Theory is much different than practice. 


Take the first hole at Augusta National.  I might differ with that lone fairway bunker being labeled as “not so strategic”.  For the bombers, it forces many of them to consider hitting three wood off the tee because driver brings the woods on the left into play if they can’t carry the bunker or try to skirt it on the left and end up tugging it.  That bunker by the way happens to be on a direct line to the hole which is always the instinctive way to try to play for most golfers, I think Max Behr said that  :)  .  For the shorter hitter, they might not even see the bunker because it is too far out of their range.  That said, if they block their tee shot right, they are now left with a forced carry over that bunker and a shot that needs to be hit with a big cut or they will run into the woods on the left.  Of a sudden that bunker that was "out of play" is very much in play.  For the really short hitter, that bunker might force them to play away from the green for their approach shot because they don't want to risk topping it into the bunker.


Wind conditions, turf conditions, teeing locations, and most importantly golfer ability play a tremendous role on how bunkers (or almost any design feature) impacts play from day to day on a golf course. 


I used to think that my favorite bunker at Augusta National was completely out of play and just relegated to eye candy (the fairway bunker on #10).  For the most part it is (at least for the pros) but for many other golfers, especially the ones who only hit it 180 yards and for those who hit the ball low above the ground, that bunker probably presents a “strategic or penal” challenge that they can’t ignore as they play that hole.  Somedays it might not be a factor at all and other days it might be a nightmare that has to be dealt with.  That variety is what makes this game great and what is also sometimes hard to draw up on an architect’s plans.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2017, 12:53:35 PM by Mark_Fine »

JC Urbina

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Strategy of additional bunkers
« Reply #31 on: February 27, 2017, 02:33:29 PM »
 Joe,

I can relate to two instances where taken a bunker out may have been  perceived as altering the stragey of a golf hole.  In my mind the removal of a green side bunker made the hole more intriguing and far more “strategic”
 
First scenario.  Hole # 5 a par 4 at The Paramount Club in New York.  The hole plays downhill and uses two defense mechanisms to set up the strategy of the hole.  Off the tee you have to hit a laser directly over a cross-bunker and make the ball land just feet away from the left fairway bunkers.  You can bail out to the right on this fairway because Tillinghast gave you ample room.  The safe shot hitting away from the bunkers left you with a possible run in with the trees planted close to the green on the right side for your second shot
 
Years ago a series of bunkers were added in the name of strategy, a couple in the fairway on the right and a left green side bunker.
 
In the restoration of this hole I removed the right fairway bunkers and the left green side bunker.  The goal was increase options with both the tee shot and the second shot.  By removing the bunkers I increased the strategic value of the hole by three fold. 
 
The slope of the fairway from left to right combined with a slope of the green from right to left gave this hole everything a designer could ask for in a down hill two shot hole.  Taking out the bunkers made the hole more inviting but with unassuming peril lurking to the unwise golfer.  If someone could help me post a photo I would be happy to show the intent.
Here is a quote from Tilinghast that I used to inform the ownership of my intent to remove the left green side bunker for added strategy.
 
     
" Grass Hollow.  It just about as hard to pitch a ball accurately from a grassy depression these days as it is to knock it up cold from a sand pit with one of trick clubs"


A club you just visited in South Carolina uses bunkers to steer golfers around the course. It was the designers challenge to the membership.
 
« Last Edit: February 27, 2017, 02:35:31 PM by JC Urbina »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Strategy of additional bunkers
« Reply #32 on: February 27, 2017, 02:55:27 PM »



The one thing I learned from Mr. Dye about great players that really stuck with me was how conservative they are.  If you give them a safe side, they'll usually hedge over that way.  I think that was probably more true for Jack Nicklaus' generation [and Jack himself] than Rory McIlroy and his ilk, but I still think it happens ... and, realistically, I'm not building courses for Rory anyway, only for guys who dream they are anywhere near that good.


Tom, basically, this is what Broadie's stats (all taken in the last dozen years, so applicable to Rory as well, in fact, he includes him specifically even though he hasn't played as many US events)


If OB is on the right, (S&D) over time, you are statistically better off to aim way left (pros left third of fw, ams left rough).  Your score over 100 rounds or whatever will be better that way, regardless of what you do on the approach, as those results are all factored over time.


If you have lateral water (one stroke) right both sides aim close to center, ams left third.  The idea is pros have a 4 degree dispersion, ams about 6.5, so you aim just outside those norms to avoid penalty.


If a sand bunker, you challenge it a bit more, because your recovery over time adds up to a better score, even if you go in the bunker more often.  And rough on the other side diminishes your approach shot success, too.  So, you might aim right third of FW, ams might aim at center.


He makes no distinction on how it might improve the approach, the job of the tee shot is to avoid the big number you can't recover from, then make reasonable effort to avoid hazards, and lastly, perhaps try for an optimum angle.  Again, statistically, it makes sense.  Or, as I say, why challenge a hazard with a driver when you can challenge it with a 5 iron on the next shot?  Seems like better chances overall, unless you have what Jim Urbina describes - FW falling right, putting many shots over there, and a green falling left, making it near impossible to hold from that side. 


I think the difference might be golfers don't like a hole designed to make bogey real easy to make. Instead of costing a stroke with a safe tee shot, current thoughts are to cost no more than a half a stroke, or maybe none at all.  When you decide the advantage has to narrow, then hazard avoidance becomes more important than angle, in Broadie, and many others minds.


He uses strokes gained over average as his measure, which is neat in the effect that it works as a definition for all talent levels.  You just have to know your talent level, keep track of some shots, know some general degrees of deflection for your handicap group, etc.


But the point for this group is, all the Golden Age Masters wrote about challenging the line to gain an advantage, but did so without the benefit of statistical analysis.  The theory was never tested........but it was widely accepted. So, was it right?  Did golfers ever take the most challenging route, or the real safe one (think of Macs contest hole?)


Maybe not Broadie, but perhaps stats analysis will change the way architects think about strategy.  If not, I think it should! :)
« Last Edit: February 27, 2017, 03:00:18 PM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Strategy of additional bunkers
« Reply #33 on: February 27, 2017, 06:40:33 PM »
There are two holes which I have played where any changes to the bunkers strike me as criminal: the 6th at Old White and the 12th at Mid Pines.  If the architects here or the avid players disagree, I will retreat with my head held high to my day job to never be heard again.

Jaeger Kovich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Strategy of additional bunkers
« Reply #34 on: February 27, 2017, 09:09:27 PM »
There are two holes which I have played where any changes to the bunkers strike me as criminal: the 6th at Old White and the 12th at Mid Pines.  If the architects here or the avid players disagree, I will retreat with my head held high to my day job to never be heard again.


Lol, retreat away. I built 2 of those bunkers down the left of 12 at mid pines for your "Mr. Frantz", nothing sacred there!  :P

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Strategy of additional bunkers
« Reply #35 on: February 27, 2017, 09:18:00 PM »
Mr. Kovich, thank you for those bunkers, and I trust you that Mr. Franz had no influence over your shaping them.  Mr. Ross designed a brilliant hole on a wonderful course--if he also deserves no credit, so be it.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2017, 09:58:48 PM by Ira Fishman »

Jaeger Kovich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Strategy of additional bunkers New
« Reply #36 on: February 28, 2017, 05:22:52 AM »
Ira - It was Kyle's project, of course he had a lot of influence. He gives anyone that comes to shape with him a ton of freedom. He is also very good at editing and critiquing shaping.  The second complex on the left is something he added a few years ago when, not Ross.... I'm not sure where you are coming from with this credit stuff. I'm just saying, bunkers aren't as sacred as you think.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2017, 09:00:05 PM by Jaeger Kovich »