[Bill Brightly]

If the course opened in in 1928, certainly Charles Banks finished the work and I am not aware of Charlie building any square greens. I wonder how much work was done in 1925? Perhaps it was all done in 1926 and 1927, meaning Banks supervised all of the work, following Raynor's plans?


As an interesting aside, that means that Banks was overseeing the last 9 holes of Fishers Island, building Rock Spring, and winning his first solo design: Hackensack GC, which he was awarded in June of 1926. Maybe it was best that he could not hold Raynor's west coast project, Cypress Point!



I was sad that the Montclair-Rock Spring merger did not work out to the point where both courses could remain open as one club. They would have had the distinction of having three Ross nines and three Raynor-Banks. I don't know any of the specifics that caused the land sale, but that is one tough neighborhood to compete for new members, even with Montclair's four wonderful nines.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Well Josh Banks finished the course. He was even more ambitious with his green complexes than Raynor was. So likely the greens were understated because they were changed later or not as wild as it was on a lower budget. If you look at Lake Wales CC front nine you’ll see less “Raynor” like features. To me this is simply because it was a municipal course.

Thank you Nigel.

[Keith Phillips]

Rock Spring was in the early innings of a restoration with Kelly Blake Moran when the financial crisis hit them hard.  One of the few greens properly restored was the 17th, in the top right of the aerial.  This is a large green with a dramatic false front and three 'waves / tiers' going front to back.  A really cool green and exceptionally well done by Kelly and former RS (now MGC) super Mike Campbell.  Another green that was restored is #4, a long par-4 with a (restored) huge green with plateaus front left and back right.  RS has some great holes - 3, 4, 8, 10, 11, 12 and 15 are favorites for me.

[Sven Nilsen]

Raynor died before the course was laid out on the ground, which was done by Banks in the Spring of 1926.

[Nigel Islam]

If the course opened in in 1928, certainly Charles Banks finished the work and I am not aware of Charlie building any square greens. I wonder how much work was done in 1925? Perhaps it was all done in 1926 and 1927, meaning Banks supervised all of the work, following Raynor's plans?


As an interesting aside, that means that Banks was overseeing the last 9 holes of Fishers Island, building Rock Spring, and winning his first solo design: Hackensack GC, which he was awarded in June of 1926. Maybe it was best that he could not hold Raynor's west coast project, Cypress Point!



I was sad that the Montclair-Rock Spring merger did not work out to the point where both courses could remain open as one club. They would have had the distinction of having three Ross nines and three Raynor-Banks. I don't know any of the specifics that caused the land sale, but that is one tough neighborhood to compete for new members, even with Montclair's four wonderful nines.

Bill,


In addition to losing Cypress, he lost the contract for both MPCC courses. Camargo and Southampton were both finished in house. Mayo was building both Hawaii courses under the indirect supervision of Banks. He also had both Essex County CC courses going, Lookout Mountain, Knollwood, Rock Springs, maybe some work at Fox Chapel, Cragin Park (likely not built,) Statesville, possibly work at Fishers as you alluded to, and of course Hackensack. I’m not sure if Banks had anything to do with Blue Mound, Yeamans, or Yale. Banks was quite the amazing cat. He was generally well liked, and he built some amazing courses. 1926 must have been a very interesting year for Banks.


Nigel

[Bill Brightly]

If the course opened in in 1928, certainly Charles Banks finished the work and I am not aware of Charlie building any square greens. I wonder how much work was done in 1925? Perhaps it was all done in 1926 and 1927, meaning Banks supervised all of the work, following Raynor's plans?


As an interesting aside, that means that Banks was overseeing the last 9 holes of Fishers Island, building Rock Spring, and winning his first solo design: Hackensack GC, which he was awarded in June of 1926. Maybe it was best that he could not hold Raynor's west coast project, Cypress Point!



I was sad that the Montclair-Rock Spring merger did not work out to the point where both courses could remain open as one club. They would have had the distinction of having three Ross nines and three Raynor-Banks. I don't know any of the specifics that caused the land sale, but that is one tough neighborhood to compete for new members, even with Montclair's four wonderful nines.

Bill,


In addition to losing Cypress, he lost the contract for both MPCC courses. Camargo and Southampton were both finished in house. Mayo was building both Hawaii courses under the indirect supervision of Banks. He also had both Essex County CC courses going, Lookout Mountain, Knollwood, Rock Springs, maybe some work at Fox Chapel, Cragin Park (likely not built,) Statesville, possibly work at Fishers as you alluded to, and of course Hackensack. I’m not sure if Banks had anything to do with Blue Mound, Yeamans, or Yale. Banks was quite the amazing cat. He was generally well liked, and he built some amazing courses. 1926 must have been a very interesting year for Banks.


Nigel

Nigel, wait! Who built Camargo?  I've seen their Eden hole and always believed it was one of Raynor's best. Are you saying that Raynor started the work but it was finished in house after he died? As pretty as their Eden appears, I've never understood the bunkering...


Banks definitely completed Fishers Island. Years ago I borrowed and read their anniversary book. I played the course two weeks ago (OMG what a golf course!) and almost bought the book in their pro shop... but opted for another shirt...


Since you know your stuff, I'll tell you this story. One of ur members found a newspaper article from the 50's by a popular sportswriter in New Jersey, Red Smith, attributing Hackensack to Raynor. That interested me, since Raynor is a more well-known architect than Banks. I did a ton of research. MIke Cirba and Sven Nelson would have been proud! I read through five years of old newspapers on microfiche from the twenties researching our move from the city of Hackensack to the towns of Oradell and Emerson. (I thought it would be cool to prove that HGC was a Raynor and not a Banks, right?)


But I found the true answer in a safe that contained old board minutes. I read the June 1926 report to the board from the committee to select a new architect (since months after Raynor died, 3 months after we sold the land in Hackensack and acquired a new site.) Donald Ross said he was too busy to accept any new work, We received "propositions" (not proposals) from Styles and Van Kleek, A.W. Tillinghast (which would have probably meant that he would NOT have built Ridgewood CC a few miles away...) and Charles Banks, an associate of Seth Raynor who recently passed away.


 

[Nigel Islam]

Camargo is definitely Raynor. I think the superintendent (William Jackson) finished the work with two members. Dewitt Balch and Fred Chatfield. Nine holes opened in September of 1926 with the rest of the course opening the following year.
   Fishers was on a similar timetable. I'm not sure the club is sure Banks was there, but it is one of the courses Gould Martin attributes as a project Banks helped him with in his obituary of Raynor for the Metropolitan Golfer.
   That's a great story about Hackensack. To think Banks basically only had 6 years to design courses, and 1/3 of that was during the depression......
His career is very under appreciated.

[Bruce Katona]

Too bad you missed out on the management contract Slapper!

[Steve Lapper]

Too bad you missed out on the management contract Slapper!

Nah Bruce...while it certainly would've been fun to be around the course, the deal the township was asking for (and Kemper Sports agreed to) wasn't a very good one from our perspective....and you well know, a bad deal on a good course is still a bad deal!

[Bruce Katona]

Slap: Lose money on every PAYING patron but make it up on volume is not a good business model?

[Joe Bausch]

I had the pleasure of playing Rock Spring last Saturday afternoon with my friend Mike Cirba.  It was very enjoyable as the conditioning was good, presentation could probably be touched up, and the pace of play good.

The back nine is awesome, starting with an Alps-like tenth hole, followed by a Road hole 11th.

Lighting was nice for the photo album.  This URL is to the album formatted wide and little compression:

http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/RockSpring/index.html

If you have a smaller monitor, then the album at the Bausch Collection at MyPhillyGolf.com is more to your liking:

http://www.myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/RockSpring/index.html

[MCirba]

Wow, I really hope Rock Spring lives long and prospers.


Lots of really good stuff out there and as Joe mentioned, that back nine is pretty special.


Instantly in the top 5 NJ public courses IMO, even if it could use a bit of sprucing up.

[Peter Gannon]

Glad you made it out there Joe and Mike!  Thanks for the gallery, Joe! 


Front 9 is not too shabby either.  Sneaky tough.  Love the 4th hole, especially the green!  Don't see that on many area public courses!  7 tee shot demands a draw, or lay up safe, but far out, making that green smaller than it appears. 


And agree, hope it remains for a long time.  It's a great architecture 101 discussion for area public golfers not so familiar to the questions the course asks. 

[Peter Gannon]

I played Rock Spring today for a late afternoon round.  Was able to walk in less than 3 hours, and finally played it when conditions were dry and firm.  (they've had a ton of rain, or always playing it soggy.)  It was a great day, and love the shots asked, cool strategy, and the ball was rolling out!


Having played it from public opening, it was a bit of a bummer to see they are shrinking green sizes on 3, 6, 11, and 16.  11 was the biggest bummer.  It's a great green, and a tough par even with a GIR if on the low, right side.   I've always found the large greens, and the challenge of hitting the greens in the right spot one of the most interesting tasks of the course. 


Still thrilled to have it as an option, and rooting for them, but fingers crossed they don't shrink the greens any further!  Course is a gem.  Staff has been great.  Sid, the starter always has a good story. 

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