[archie_struthers]

 




We've been working on  renovation plans for Greate Bay GC for some time now. GB is a Willie Park Jr course that was built in the mid twenties . Its arguably the  most successful golf club on the Jersey Cape , with great location just five miles from the bustling summer resort town of Ocean City , NJ.   We have a diverse membership and our dues are reasonable , by U.S. standards for like kind clubs.


Just woke up in the middle of the night thinking about a new routing. It would eliminate a long walk or short cart ride of of approximately 200 yards that is proposed in the changes. I've never gotten my arms around this long trek, which would be between holes seven and eight. However, in eliminating the walk, we would have to flip a couple holes around making the front nine a par 36 with one par five and the back par 34 with three par threes. currently we are 35/35  par seventy and what you would call "balanced" with two threes and a five on each nine. 


I'm guessing the majority will agree that anything that improves the quality of the walk and the holes themselves is a good thing even if balance is skewed. The new nines would measure approximately 3620 on the front and 3200 on the back from the back of the bus. Most of our members choose to play the tees closer to 6,000 yards.


If anything , my biggest regret in building Twisted Dune that there just should have been a lot more quirk and less fairness in thinking thru the design. Had a shot to really have some fun with a blank palette. Think its hard to be too crazy on your first go,round, probably study and read too much .  Cant wait to build a couple new greens on our renovation and see if I can make them appear like Willie Jr built them .




I guess I should really be concerned that  I've most likely  dashed my hopes for the presidency by writing about golf holes at 2:30 a.m.?    Oh well, no pension for me.

[Peter Pallotta]

 
No pension for you, Archie. But you'll be making the average member there very happy. Imagine the glee of the bogey golfer when he can say "Hey, I broke 40 on the back!".

Peter

[jeffwarne]

We don't need no stinkin" balance
Sounds like a win-win.
The biggest bore in golf is the modern standard of returning nines with two par 5's and two par 3's on each side-that and 5 stes of tees so every hole is "reachable" for everybody despite ability and handicap yet somehow "tough but fair"


Improving the walk is another bonus.


One of my favorite events here in the MET Section is played at Wheatley Hills with three par 5's and four par 3's in an 8 hole stretch. (5 total par 5's and 5 par 3's)
5 par 5's gives a lot of birdie chances and challenges a nearly lost art(fairway woods)

[Joe Bausch]

Here is the current routing at Greate Bay.  I'm trying to figure out exactly what you are proposing Archie so I can put together a new figure for people to digest!

[Tim Martin]

We don't need no stinkin" balance
Sounds like a win-win.
The biggest bore in golf is the modern standard of returning nines with two par 5's and two par 3's on each side-that and 5 stes of tees so every hole is "reachable" for everybody despite ability and handicap yet somehow "tough but fair"


Improving the walk is another bonus.

+1

[Jeff_Brauer]

Sounds like the biggest complaint here might be a major re-routing of a classic course, which seems to be implied, since you didn't say just "renumbering." I could be wrong.

[MCirba]

Archie,

See Pacific Dunes for Exhibit A with 4 par threes on the back nine and one on the front.

[archie_struthers]

 


Joe B , come on down . Weather still good


We are eliminating the 8th hole . After a long court fight we received approvals to,build a while ago.. It will allow us to get rid of our debt and in that we need a new sprinkler system the timing is good for,us. 


Eight is a good hole, it also is the logical place to develop .  We have considered rebuilding a replica where the current 11th is now, but right now its probably not our answer. Holes 11 &12 were built by Ron Garl in the early eighties  ;this was necessitated by  the need for a practice range . The twelfth has often been called our "signature hole" (retch). Not many abhor signature hole designation more than me     


Never thought  11&12 fit in the Park Jr mix. Different genre altogether. Now we can restore an original from the twenties which runs from the existing front tee on 11 to the 12th green . It was a neat par four with a small creek running in front of the green . Not exactly the 11th at Merion but some similar strategies will exist .  Will rebuild 11 green behind existing one , as there is room to stretch it . New tee for number nine already in works.  Old green will remain I've really wanted to improve the course during this process , thinks it's more than probable .

Twelve (12)  becomes a dogleg right thru the woods back up to a green-site close to the existing forward tee on 11 . Some of the posters have sent me some awesome Park Jr green pictures that have been rolling around in my head . Going to use them as guide to Park Jr ideas


Excited to,get going . We are just beginning some work now .

[Joe Bausch]

Exciting stuff, Archie!

[Jason Topp]

Pacific Dunes turned out pretty well. 

[Tom_Doak]

In my opinion, balance is completely overrated, and the province of people with slow minds.  The flow of a course is more than just what pars the individual holes have. 


Many golfers perceive a course by the back-and-forth between "tough" holes [long 4's and 3's] vs. "easy" holes [short 4's and most par-5's].  For example, Forest Dunes is par-34 on one side and 36 on the other, but it's the par-34 side that most people perceive as tougher, because the short holes are hard ones and there is no easy par-5 to make birdie on.  At Pacific Dunes, it's just the opposite:  the par-35 back nine is the easier one because it consists of mostly par-3 and par-5 holes, while the front side is a tough stretch of lots of strong par-4's.


But does any of that really matter at the end of the day?  Only for people who have nothing better to do, and desire a routing that's predictable instead of one that follows the whims of the site.

[Mike Sweeney]

I guess I should really be concerned that I've most likely dashed my hopes for the presidency by writing about golf holes at 2:30 a.m.?   

As a wannabe, it sounds like a great life to me!


When I escort first timers at Yale, my standard question on the 16th tee is, "What is unique to this hole that you have not seen in the first 15 holes?"


Very few realize that it is the first par 5 on the course which ends in a par of 5.0, 4.5, and 8.0 If you can post a sketch of your thoughts at some point, it would be fun to follow.


#BringBackBongoRoom

[archie_struthers]

 




Seems that we  are united  in our beliefs that its the quality of the holes not the sequence.  I'm still opposed to a staccato of difficult as without a breather golf becomes tedious.  Courses like Somerset Hills  and  Maidstone come to mind as ones that you could enjoy playing all the time .


If somehow you can take a course and make it playable for most of us , yet twist the expert player, you have built a winner.

[Carl Johnson]

Archie, I like to think about sequencing and front 9 vs. back 9 in terms of how they relate to match play, beginning at no. 1.  (This is somewhat the same approach to thinking about where you give strokes, e.g., which is the no. 1 handicap hole, etc.)


How do the current sequence and the new sequence you've thought of work in the match play context?  Or, do you think that's not a relevant approach to thinking about the issue?

[MCirba]

Archie,

Didn't Park's original course have two par threes clustered together in opposite directions near the clubhouse?

I ask because Joe Bausch has recently noted that this is a very common theme in Willie Parks' work.   Thanks!

[archie_struthers]

 

Yes Mike but they weren't really good holes IMHO .  One still remains #3 , it s short but harder for expert than average player so I like it.   The other hole was right where our large putting green is , and made for a real congestion issue in the area . It was removed prior to our purchase in 1998. Not sure but  maybe Garl removed it. Will research , someone will beat me to it hopefully.

It wasn't much of a hole , about 160 from tips and dangerous in a lot of ways.  Too close to clubhouse and parking lot etc etc.  Bunkering and green pretty basic , maybe it was done by Fazio in the first renovation ?

[Niall C]

In my opinion, balance is completely overrated, and the province of people with slow minds.  The flow of a course is more than just what pars the individual holes have.
 

But does any of that really matter at the end of the day?  Only for people who have nothing better to do, and desire a routing that's predictable instead of one that follows the whims of the site.

Tom

I agree, and possibly the outstanding example of that over here is Troon yet it still takes stick for the imbalance.

Niall

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