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Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Abstract: Well-Intentioned Designs That Didn't Function as Planned?
« Reply #25 on: November 08, 2016, 07:33:42 AM »
Seeing FW was one of the greatest architectural days of my life. Even Nancy loved it!
Sure, there are some issues with the construction and the detailing. I'd say that's to be expected if you're going to push the envelope. A lot of rockets have to explode on the launch pad if you're trying to get to the moon!
Design is about trying new things, being innovative, using the knowledge and experience you've gained to experiment with stuff. Sometimes it works, sometimes it's a train wreck. As long as nobody dies, it's usually worthwhile. We (hopefully!) learn by our mistakes.
If golf course architecture wants to be considered as a true art, then we'll have to put up with an occasional William McGonagall in amongst the Rabbie Burns!
F.

The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Abstract: Well-Intentioned Designs That Didn't Function as Planned?
« Reply #26 on: November 08, 2016, 09:07:05 AM »
Any green built that requires a green side fan to grow the grass is a failure. Always not so well intentioned either.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Abstract: Well-Intentioned Designs That Didn't Function as Planned?
« Reply #27 on: November 08, 2016, 10:54:36 AM »
Is Royal New Kent the poster child for this concept?


Seems like a nightmare to maintain...but really cool!!!

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Abstract: Well-Intentioned Designs That Didn't Function as Planned?
« Reply #28 on: November 08, 2016, 11:04:24 AM »
Is Royal New Kent the poster child for this concept?


Seems like a nightmare to maintain...but really cool!!!


Too soon?

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Abstract: Well-Intentioned Designs That Didn't Function as Planned?
« Reply #29 on: November 08, 2016, 12:00:49 PM »
TD,
Reading your post above...could we use the same logic to say that a course that requires a 300-400 yard walk to the next tee is NOT a great design even if the holes are acceptable?   IMHO coming off the green and quickly to the next tee is a requirement.  If not one can have a good course but not a great course....I played such an animal in the last few days...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Abstract: Well-Intentioned Designs That Didn't Function as Planned?
« Reply #30 on: November 08, 2016, 02:40:44 PM »
Is Royal New Kent the poster child for this concept?


Seems like a nightmare to maintain...but really cool!!!


Too soon?


Nah...

He wasn't trying to build a maintainable golf course...

Peter Pallotta

Re: Abstract: Well-Intentioned Designs That Didn't Function as Planned?
« Reply #31 on: November 08, 2016, 06:02:55 PM »
I'm looking through the Confidential Guide and trying to guess if Tom & Associates downgraded a course/its architecture because the design could not be sensibly and/or reasonably maintained (not including the bunkers at Merion and the greens at Oakmont of course)

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Abstract: Well-Intentioned Designs That Didn't Function as Planned?
« Reply #32 on: November 08, 2016, 06:36:46 PM »
TD,
Reading your post above...could we use the same logic to say that a course that requires a 300-400 yard walk to the next tee is NOT a great design even if the holes are acceptable?   IMHO coming off the green and quickly to the next tee is a requirement.  If not one can have a good course but not a great course....I played such an animal in the last few days...


Its difficult for me to say a course is a failure for any one of the many good reasons cited above.  That said, I am struggling to think of a great course I played that wasn't a good walk....there a few though...Kiawah, Dormie, Trump Aberdeen, Roaring Gap. 


I think the walk isn't quite the same thing as grassless greens because the walk is a very subjective criteria.  However, there is a shit load of ground between great and a failure.


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Abstract: Well-Intentioned Designs That Didn't Function as Planned?
« Reply #33 on: November 08, 2016, 08:29:58 PM »
Sean,
I think we just don't see "great" in the same light after looking at your list.  Some are very good but noton my all time great list...cheers...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Abstract: Well-Intentioned Designs That Didn't Function as Planned?
« Reply #34 on: November 09, 2016, 11:44:01 AM »
I didn't view this thread as one about greatness, i.e. the top 100.  I viewed it as relating to the other 14,900 golf courses in the US (or more around the world......)

It would be interesting to define "well intentioned designs."  Certainly any done by a qualified, full time gca were at least mostly well intentioned.  Perhaps some housing courses done by engineers or others can't be called well intentioned.

What about those done in house by someone who wants more than anything (function, greatness) to say they designed a golf course?  What about those in the past who did it in simpler times? (i.e., amateur sportsmen, Merion, etc)

Are muni courses, designed for fast play and to serve beginners and D players poor intention designed golf courses?  Were difficult CCFAD public courses, designed to get awards for all involved, at the expense of every day fun well intentioned?  We sure didn't think so at the time.....

I will go back to my main point - a golf course designed for primarily any particular subset of golfers is probably well intentioned.   There are hundreds of details that must be considered to make it function well.  I just finished a conversation with a staff member.  He had drawn some cart paths.  At first glance they looked fine, but I applied the checklist to them, and some failed. 

Did they follow the natural inclination of golfers to take the shortest route? 

Were they safe?  (He was actually in favor of some circuitous routes to get golfers as far away from the last green as possible, but the real solution is to space them out a bit to follow sentence one above.....)

Did they follow the shortest route so we can spend more on other items?

Do we really need to expend path to get to the back tees for that 1%, or should we align them primarily for the convenience of the middle tee player?

Was there a well spread out approach to greens and tees from logical spots on the path?

Etc., etc., etc.

Just today's daily dose of a gca reality.  We may not like it, but we HAVE to think about that stuff.......
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

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