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Rich Goodale

  • Karma: +0/-0
I still play a few times these years in competitions with elite (ex-Walker cup, plus handicap, etc.) Senior players in the UK and had the privilege of playing with Dan Moore a few years ago at Dismal, and I can honestly state that any course over the 6500-6800 is driver/rescue club all day for anybody other than those of the ex-pro David Eger ilk.  7000+ is just a slog and not golf for 99.9% of elite seniors, no matter how far they hit the ball.


Been there, got the sweater, etc.


Rich
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

Mark Smolens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Congrats on a great couple of weeks Mr. Moore. Top ten in State Senior Am, and competitive effort at Old Warson. Two of your second rounds would've made it to match play.

Still think you should skip Cubs and come up to Sand Valley with us on the 7th... the prelims are meaningless this year -- World Series or bust!

Dan Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Marks Rich et al thank you.  I just got home and need to decompress and think a little before offering more detailed insights into the course. Mid-1950's RTJ at over 7,000 so going in I didn't know what to expect, but in general I thought it was terrific. And big Kudos to the USGA.  I don't think the set-up could have been better for the stroke play portion of the event. It was a super fair set-up.  There are a number of big downhill shots so the course probably plays 75-100 yards shorter than the card.


I've noticed for this afternoon they have the front at 3,305 including having the par 5 6th at 470.  The back is 3,544 for a total of 6,845. On the back they have the par 4 14th at 270 and par 3 17th at 164 when it played 220 Saturday.  Some photos and more thoughts later. 
"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

Ryan Hillenbrand

  • Karma: +0/-0
Marks Rich et al thank you.  I just got home and need to decompress and think a little before offering more detailed insights into the course. Mid-1950's RTJ at over 7,000 so going in I didn't know what to expect, but in general I thought it was terrific. And big Kudos to the USGA.  I don't think the set-up could have been better for the stroke play portion of the event. It was a super fair set-up.  There are a number of big downhill shots so the course probably plays 75-100 yards shorter than the card.


I've noticed for this afternoon they have the front at 3,305 including having the par 5 6th at 470.  The back is 3,544 for a total of 6,845. On the back they have the par 4 14th at 270 and par 3 17th at 164 when it played 220 Saturday.  Some photos and more thoughts later.

That's an exciting decision to make #14 a potentially driveable par 4 for match play. Its already one of the best holes there and recognized as one the Top 500 Holes on Golf Magazine's list. This will make it even more interesting.

Dan Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Ryan,

It appears Dave Ryan, 4 time Illinois Sr champ, just aced 14 to win his 2nd consecutive hole and square his match against former champ Paul Simson but then bogied 15 and 16 to drop 2 back. Gotta love match play.
"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

Dan Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Ryan then birdied 17 and won 18 with a par to send the match to extra holes. After they both parred the 1st, Ryan won #2, their 20th hole with a par. Gotta love match play! Congrats Dave!!!
"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
 8)


One of our regulars in the Monday afternoon game at Greate Bay , Joe Russo was second low qualifier for match play . Looking forward to quizzing him about the course and set-up . He hits it pretty far , so distance isn't the issue.  Sorry to say he didn't play as well in match play .  However , just making it there is a nice accomplishment and there aren't any gimmes.


Congrats to all who played , enjoying analysis.

Dan Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
    First of all congratulations to Dave Ryan, 4 time Illinois Sr Am. Champion, for holding on to win his first USGA Sr. Am. today.  Extremely well done Mr. Ryan!!  Like many of the matches it was a see saw affair.  His opponent Matt Sughrie was only 1 over par after 10 holes but was down 4.  Ryan had birdied 4 of the first six holes. After several bogey's by Ryan and a Sughrie birdie, the match was all square after 15 holes. Ryan pared the very difficult final three holes to earn a 2 up victory. 
 
http://www.usga.org/championships/2016/u-s--senior-amateur/articles/ryan-rides-roller-coaster-final-to-senior-amateur-title.html
 
Here are some photos and random thoughts on the course.  With the Ryder Cup next week at another RT Jones course I thought a closer look at his architecture might be of interest. Unfortunately I don’t have photos of every hole.  The USGA Sr. Am. Website also has many wonderful action shots of the tournament and players and a gallery of course photos.
 
http://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/championships/2016/u-s--senior-amateur.html
 
Original Robert Trent Jones Course Map. Routing was changed a year or two after the course opened. At that time the short par 4 14th was added using the original 6th green and the par 3 17th was added. The original 5th hole was eliminated.  Course history indicates RTJ agreed with the changes.  The nines were also reconfigured.
 
Using the 1954 hole numbers the course today is routed in the following order. Numbers in parenthesis indicate hole number from 1954 map.
 
Front Nine:  1, 2, 3, 4, 5 (14), 6 (15), 7 (16), 8 (17), 9 (18)
Back Nine: 10, 11, 12, 13, new 14 to old 6th green, 15 (7), 16 ( 8) , new 17th hole, 18 (9)
 

 
Card of the course from the original map

 
1996 Aerial  Note the tree lined fairways.

 
2016 Aerial  Note the significant amount of tree removal compared to 1996. 

 
A scorecard from the 1971 Ryder Cup match featuring Nicklaus Palmer vs Bannerman Townsend. Note the front nine scores of 29 and 30.  Eleven birdies between the two teams. And the back nine where only two birdies were scored, both by the US team. The course was listed as 7,272 yards in 1971.
 

 
The scorecard as advertised for the Sr. Am.
 

 
As noted, it played under 6,800 yards for both stoke play rounds. Of all six days of the tournament it played over 7,000 on only one day-Wednesday for the quarter and semi finals.  The tees and hole locations on the par 3’s, par 5’s and 14th hole were varied quite a bit throughout the tournament. 
 
Here is what it played each day. Yardages for each hole can be seen on the USGA scoring page for the tournament.
 
Saturday             6,767
Sunday            6,799
Monday            6,899
Tuesday            6,853
Wednesday            7,035
Thursday            6,956
 
Even at its longest, his was more than 200 yards less than the pros played it in the 1972 Ryder Cup with balata balls. 
 
 
Impression of the Course.
 
 The main feature of the property is a ridge that separates higher ground on the south side  of the course from the lower ground along the creek to the north. The fairway of the 5th, all of the 6th and 12th fairway are all located on the lower ground. The 5th and 12th holes feature dramatic downhill drives. The par 3 7th the 13th and par 4 14th holes transition from the lower to the higher ground.  The first four, middle four and final four holes are all located on the higher ground.
 
The routing was quite clever in how it split the use of the lower section between both nines and had only one long uphill walk which was from the 12th green to the 13th tee. The rest of the uphill transitions were pretty gentle, eg 8 and 14.  The 5th and 12th holes both featured big downhill drives from elevated tees. The second half of the long 16th hole also played quite a bit downhill. All three holes played shorter than their number on the card. 
 
The routing traversed through the property as follows.  A relatively short and easy start through the first 4 holes (1-4). Three of the four par 4’s that are under 400 yards are found in this beginning section. This was followed by a trek into the lower section of the course for 3 holes (5-7). This was followed by four par 4 holes on the upper section (8-11). Then back down to the lower section for hole 12 followed by a transition back up on holes 13 and 14. The course then finished with a very difficult stretch over the final four holes (15-18) on the upper section. 
 
Viewed more broadly, the course had three main sections; an easy 4 hole start, a varied and interesting ebb and flow through the middle 10 holes, and a very long and hard finish.
 
An interesting feature of the course is the fact that only 7 of the 14 drive holes had fairway bunkers. One might note the rough surrounding the fairways was very difficult making long iron or hybrid 2nd shots extremely hard.  In contrast the greens were tightly guarded by at least one and in most cases several bunkers.  The greens were large and undulating and quite good in my opinion.  My only objection to the set-up/design was in the use of long grass surrounding the greens. It was a varied mix of Bermuda and thick bluegrass. I didn’t think this offered much in the way of short game variety. 
 
Arriving at the Club Sunday at 6:15 for my 7:40 tee time. 

 
Practice Area

 

 
1st Hole from side of teeing ground. Hole is fairly straight from tee with a fairway that slopes left to right.  At one time this tee must have extended quite a ways back

 
2nd hole another shortish par 4 with a slight dogleg to the left.
 
3rd Hole from tee. Note bunker fronting the middle of the green.

 
4th Hole from Tee Dogleg left down the hill.

 
5th Hole from below the teeing ground which is high on a ridge above the stream valley. Creek runs along the left and is close to a steep drop-off on the left of the green making the long approach pretty nerve racking.

 
5th Hole from Green  Teeing area is above the Lombard Street switchbacks high on the hill.

 
No photos of the 6th hole other than what you can see above. The main feature was OB left for the entire length of the hole including quite close to the green discouraging going for the green in two.  Green set at a nice angle to play with the front left open and tempting for the long 2nd shot.
 
The uphill 7th from behind the green. Hole has a redan look to it due to the right greenside bunker built into the hill which is line with the bridge in this photo.

 
I don’t have a photo of the 8th hole but it’s a monster 460 yarder with an uphill drive followed by a sharp dogleg to the right. As long as you stayed near the nest of three bunkers on the inside of the dogleg the hole played quite a bit shorter than the card.  In fact due to the sharp angle of the dogleg a 220 yard uphill drive was almost as good as a 260 yard drive. 
 
9th Hole from tee Narrowest hole on the course.

 
9th Green from behind

 
10th Hole Fine dogleg right with an uphill approach. Front half of the green was very steep

 
11th hole from tee with arch in the background. Green was elevated with a neat little dip and rise in front of the green.

 
11th green from fairway


 
12th Hole from Tee Big sweeping par 5 with water crossing the fairway on the second shot and in front of the green which was narrow and wide

 
12th from behind the green.

 
13th Hole from tee (14th tee to right up the hill)

 
13th green viewed from behind with 14th fairway across the lake.

 
14th Hole from left of the lower tee.   High tee to a cape like fairway. Carry varied from 215 right to to 245 on the left from the upper tee. They played this from 369 to 270. Champion Dave Taylor aced it for a double eagle. 

 
14th Hole from behind green. 360 tee in front of fence up the hill. 270 tee at base of hill

 

 
No photos of 15 but another very hard 440 yard par 4. The fairway sloped hard from right to left making the fairway hard to hit.
 
16th Hole from tee. Very long par 5. Played around 580 the first couple of days then 615 the rest of the time.  Water all along the left of the second and third shots. Significant downhill if you could get to the 150 mark in two that would add 50 yards to the shot and take you to a flat lie.  Strong hole. 

 
16th Green with 13th green in background.

 
16th Green in background behind 14th green

 
17th Hole Very narrow front of the green pinched by flanking bunkers.

 

 
18th Green Pretty classic long par 4 finishing hole. Uphill 2nd to a very undulating green.

 
18th Green from behind

 
Waiting for the Final Stroke Play Scores to be Posted

 
 
 
« Last Edit: September 27, 2016, 01:20:57 PM by Dan Moore »
"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

Buck Wolter

  • Karma: +0/-0
I caddied there occasionally in Grad school at about the same time as the 1996 aerial --looks much improved .
Those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience -- CS Lewis

Steve Pozaric

  • Karma: +0/-0
Great pics of OW!  I am glad you had good impressions of the course.


I wish my work schedule had allowed me to get out there.
Steve Pozaric

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