[Mike_Cirba]

Yes, it was wet, and yes it was soft and yes they played lift, clean, and place...

But, I certainly didn't expect to see the winner of the Pennsy Open to be at 22 under, including a final round 62 by the winner, J.L. Lewis.

I played there a few years back and like most Dye courses, it can be punishing.  I didn't care for it all that much because I found it unsightly and contrived, but I would never have said that it isn't a difficult test of golf.

Apparently, I was wrong.  Yikes.  

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Mike, Is this more reasoning of how far out of control the eqiupment is for the Tiger?

[Mike_Cirba]

Tommy;

I just can't imagine that course getting blasted beyond recognition.  It has some truly hard, penal holes.  

If it ain't equipment, I'm at a loss.  

[JLahrman]

I don't know...my belief is that if US pros get to play target golf, it doesn't matter too much how penal the course is because they're not going to see much of the bad stuff.  Length doesn't matter too much to them.  They'd rather have a 5-iron to a soft, wet green than a 7 to a hard, fast one.  If a course is wet they are going to go low.  I didn't watch any of the tournament though.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Interesting,
Now even the strong penal courses are no match for Today's professional tour.

Attention Tom Fazio Associates: If you happen to be reading this, print up a copy and take to the boss and tell him they need to get a crew down here and start collecting data on this course so the proper changes can be made (containment, containment, containment......trees, trees, trees...... containment, containment, containment)

Don't forget to charge client somehow. Tell Marzaltov to order big on hotel's room service tab and leave a big tip--the client will pay for it, after you double it.

[JSlonis]

I saw an interview with Rocco Mediate during the tournament concering the low scores.  He basically said..."that if the course has soft conditions like we have this week...we're going to kill it!"  That about sums it up for the calibre of play on tour.  No matter how difficult the course appears to be, if it is soft, these guys go really low.  Look at how many under Greg Norman shot at TPC Sawgrass years ago when the place was soft, something like 22 under.

On a side note...this morning I saw Jack Nicklaus on the TODAY show in an interview with Matt Lauer talking again about the need to reign in technology, especially the golf ball.  Lauer had said that he played Shinnecock yesterday and he noted the new tees that were being built.  Nicklaus said that if something would be done at the professional level to limit the golf ball, all these great clubs that want to host a tourney and that are facing obsolesence would not have to change a thing.  He said that he thought the recreational golfer could play anything they wanted but he wants to see a change for the highest level of competition.

[Mike_Cirba]

Yes, Mystic Rock, while only 6832 yards, par 72, is largely carved out of rocky hills.

The course rating is 75.0, with a slope of 146.  

It's one of those places where it's difficult to avoid ALL of the trouble on all of the holes.  

[hpembroke]

Oh they have 5 irons to wet greens alright, to the par fives.

Mr Cirba,

I don't believe there are any penal holes left for these guys out on tour.  What is penal now days for these guys?  500y par 4's aren’t penal.  They drive it 330y (striaght down the middle too since thats what the ball and clubs help you do), they are left with a 170y 8 iron.  What green configuration, contouring, conditioning and pin placement can possibly stop a PGA Tour robot with juiced up clubs and balls from possibly taking it straight at the flag and stopping it on a dime with an 8 iron?  None.

Tour players supposedly can add to design because they play the great courses every week.  Well, I’m sorry, maybe in the 80’s, but they don’t anymore.  Between the US, European, Nationwide, Australian and Japan tours, they maybe play a dozen truly great architectural masterpieces, add to the setup of some due to "protecting par" and you are left a small number of guys seeing a small number of truly great courses to learn from.

No wonder player designers are delivering the courses they are.  The courses they play are so boring that it makes them focus even more on execution rather than strategy as there is nothing to think about, molding them even more into robots that grab a club and pull the trigger.

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Why again is it that golf is struggling?

[Mike_Cirba]

For those wondering about a comparison as to degree of difficulty, Mystic Rock is about as tough as Blackwolf Run (River), and slightly easier than Bulle Rock.  

Even though I bemoaned the trend, perhaps Pete Dye was the prescient one when he began building his most recent courses in the 7500+ yard range.

[JLahrman]

When you say "penal" Mike, it's stuff that's penal to us, not to them.  Especially on a wet course.  You could make every landing area and every green an island and it's not going to bother those guys a bit.  Slope is irrelevant to a pro, and 75 rating (or whatever it is under tourney conditions) is nothing to them.  Go back to the Canadian Open to see how to bring the penal stuff into play for the pros.

[Matt Kardash]

Can you imagine what the scores would have been if Mystic rock didn't have crazy undulating greens?

Mike,
It's pretty simple why the scores were low. Ok, the wetness is a given, but Mystic Rock has fairways that are much wider than the norm on the PGA tour. They are in the 40 yard range. So for a pro, in wet conditions, with no wind, it is almost impossible to miss the fairway, which mean that once they are in the fairway it's almost impossible to miss the greens(especially since the greens are very large). So, in the end it all comes down to putting. And these guys know how to putt.

it's really that simple.

[SPDB]

Attention Tom Fazio Associates: If you happen to be reading this, print up a copy and take to the boss and tell him they need to get a crew down here and start collecting data on this course so the proper changes can be made (containment, containment, containment......trees, trees, trees...... containment, containment, containment)

Don't forget to charge client somehow. Tell Marzaltov to order big on hotel's room service tab and leave a big tip--the client will pay for it, after you double it.

Tommy - what can this possibly add to the debate. You're too smart and too knowledgeable to simply keep on regurgitating potentially defamatory statements...ad nauseam.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Sean, Please forgive, but you don't think his standing asleep at the wheel to help battle the affects of technology that is the base of this discusson?

Yes, I'm tired of this firm, ad nauseum--the best modern architect alive, forever altering the GREAT classic courses as if he was on a mission of mercy to save them from reckless abandon, all the while denying there is a technology problem at hand as well as forever altering the beloved classics, pro bono.

Why should this be any different that its a new course? He has already done it in Scottsdale, Arizona where he completely remodeled a Greg Norman course, and he's preportedly going to do the same at Doonbeg in Ireland.

What he is doing is setting a precedence in tasteless acts by architects in not instructing the people involved to go to the the architect in question and have him adjust his own mistakes or ill-conceived ideas. That would be the right thing to do.

[buffett_guy]

What is the wisdom about Cameron Beckman having a choice between hitting his rock off the cart path or taking a drop into the knee high stuff? He elected to hit off the path and hit (i think) a wedge to about fifteen feet from 140 yards or so out. The commentator said, "that's what we call a 'sparker' back home."

another example of rules that make sense?

[SPDB]

Instead of spreading the gospel of "Fazio Sucks - Ask for Itemized Bills!," which makes you sound as if you don't care, why not elevate the discussion to the point where memberships know what a thoughtful restoration is, and how an insensitive one can be assured.

That's the point, right? I know how much you love having fun at the expense of Fazio, but honestly it gets so tiring after awhile, and it does nothing to promote thoughtful discussion of sensitive restorations.........like Oakmont  

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Or shit work like Riviera, Oak Hill, Inverness, Merion, etc. etc. etc.

As you probably know, I have no access to the Fazio records like you do. So any help would be appreciated.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Also, if you get tired of it, simply just go past my posts and on to the next one. It's your choice to read them or not.

[SPDB]

I have no such access, nor do I disagree with your opinions of Riv, OH.

Skip your posts? and risk missing the entertaining ones? You demand to much, my request is much more practical.  

[DJames]

I played there a few years back and like most Dye courses, it can be punishing.  I didn't care for it all that much because I found it unsightly and contrived, but I would never have said that it isn't a difficult test of golf.

Apparently, I was wrong.  Yikes.  

Mike:

A friend of mine is a vendor for Joe Hardy's 84 Lumber.  Hardy has made changes to Mystic Rock in recent years.  I'm not sure when, but I'll try to find out from him.  He's played Mystic Rock several times and hasn't been all that complimentary.  Hard to say if he's capable of an objective assessment of the course because of his strong opinion of the owner, who I understand is a real piece of work.

[George Pazin]

This weekend just goes that much further to show the enormous gulf between the pros & the average golfer - I thought MR was the hardest course I've ever played. I probably even played under similar conditions, since I played it in early October 2 years ago. I thought the rought was far & away the most penal rough I've ever seen - far worse than Oakmont appeared during the Am. Of course, I played MR & only walked Oakmont each day (I can hear Pat typing up a response as he reads this ).

DJames -

Matt Ward started a thread a few months ago where he detailed the most recent bout of changes. You might try searching or looking in late spring early summer,

[JohnV]

I had predicted that the pros would go low on Mystic Rock, while it is very difficult for us normal folks, it is the kind of course they can eat for breakfast, lunch and dinner.  The fairways there are very wide for them and I'm sure they were just bombing away with the driver everywhere.  Given that, somebody was going to go very low and it appears that J.L. Lewis was the one.

You wouldn't believe some of the change that took place up there.  Every time we went to do the course rating, they were adding more tees.  A couple of the par 5s were stretched about 90 to 100 yards.  The course has been stretched to 7300+ yards.  The greens were really the only defense on the course and if they were soft the pros could get it into the right places on them and not have real problems.

I bet they start growing rough right now and shrink the fairways for next year.

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