[DMoriarty]

Lets say you are designing a course on flat ground at sea level for a private club.  The club has a good mix of golfing members: + indices, mid and high indices, 6 yr. old kids, 80 yr old retirees, and women of all abilities.

The club insists that you design a course can someday host a US Open.  Along these lines, they want a true test, one that emphasizes the ability to hit long and straight.  For example, they envision quite a few par 4s which will really challenge the top players driver and long irons/ fairway woods.  In fact, they wouldnt mind it if some of the short knocking pros have trouble even getting home in regulation.

The membership also realizes that it will probably be 20 yrs or so (when the trees mature) before they get considered for the open, so they want us to keep this in mind when deciding upon the length of the holes.  

Oh yeah,  they also want the course playable for the members of all abilities, and walkable . . .

1.  How long should these par 4s play from the tips?

2.  How many tee boxes will you need on these long par 4s, and at what yardages should they be placed?  

[ian]

Build two "members" par fives that get reduced to a par four like every other US Open rotation course.

If the holes have raised greens and are into the prevailing wind, that would help too.

[tonyt]

If the back tee will be relevant to the club for one week every 15 years, then simply leave the space for them and they can be constructed when needed. If the first Open was between 2010-15, you'd need 515-535 yard holes.

Given that the longest par 4s for the membership are going to play at around 455-475, can the club reserve so much land for a once every 15 years event, and still utilise the land for their preferred routing, and tee and green sites?

It is worth noting that some members will join the club, spend many happy years there, and eventually leave the club for whatever reason, possibly between Opens and never see one. Yet through their 10-13 years of membership, they have had to put up with Open provisions.

[DMoriarty]

Build two "members" par fives that get reduced to a par four like every other US Open rotation course.

If the holes have raised greens and are into the prevailing wind, that would help too.

The club wont have it.  They want to play the same par as the pros.  And there is no prevaling wind.  How long?  How many tees?  

[DMoriarty]

If the back tee will be relevant to the club for one week every 15 years, then simply leave the space for them and they can be constructed when needed. If the first Open was between 2010-15, you'd need 515-535 yard holes.

Given that the longest par 4s for the membership are going to play at around 455-475, can the club reserve so much land for a once every 15 years event, and still utilise the land for their preferred routing, and tee and green sites?

It is worth noting that some members will join the club, spend many happy years there, and eventually leave the club for whatever reason, possibly between Opens and never see one. Yet through their 10-13 years of membership, they have had to put up with Open provisions.

The club wants it Open quality and length now.  So your course has some par 4s playing 535 from the tips, with the members tees as much as 80 yds. in front.  What about the rest of the golfers.  Surely you dont suggest 470 yds par 4s for children and the elderly?  

[Tony_Chapman]

Such an interesting question and dilemna.

You would apparently think the membership, because they want to hold and Open and want you to build and Open course, wouldn't care that they are playing a course that is "longer than most."

Lets face the fact that most members walking the course won't be playing the tees you build for the Open. So your tee-to-green relationship would be used for the members set of tees.

Assuming we make this a traditional Open course I suggest two par-5's that, from the back tees can be stretched over 600 yards at the tips but the ladies and juniors could play at the 430-470 range.

Your four par-3's should play in different directions with two of them playing over 230 from the tips, but down to the 150 range. The other two, maybe having more trouble or smaller greens, could play between 180-200 from the tips.

You now have 12 par-4's that should present a variety of options. I would suggest that you build 4-5 holes that could be played anywhere from 475-525 yards from the backs, but a managable set of tees (no more than 400 yards for the ladies) for other "member golfers." Leave one 4-par on the card that can be driven - let's face it the USGA would love to have a hole like that on the back nine (like Oakmont) and design the rest to be between 400-450 yards.

I think the course should be designed to get length, from the one and three shot holes and not just the two shot holes. But, you would need at least four par-4's to measure at least 480 yards by the time this course hold the Open.

[TEPaul]

I'm with Ian Andrews. I think some of the most interesting situations are those old courses, most notably NGLA, Maidstone, GCGC that not only have the total par that gives them shots to play with (73, 72, 73) but also have the par 5s that are seemingly perfect to morph into long par 4s without doing anything to the holes when good players are tournamenting it. Actually I'm not that sure about how well GCGC would transition.

It's an interesting transitional aspect. Some of the old courses like PVGC and Merion don't have that luxury because they always were par 70 (no shots to play with) and their par 5s aren't the types to transition to long par 4s.

The only drawback to that sort of thing at NGLA, Maidstone and GCGC is it makes them very low on par 5s--but so what?

I was just talking to Ian about that sort of thing and his project at Scranton could do it too really well on one par 5 (#12)! My own club GMGC could do it once too and definitely should on it's finishing hole which is presently a 421yd par 5 that can play about 460 all depending on the length of a drive up over a ridge or not. Doak called it "the most amusingly short par 5 of his acquaintence."

[DMoriarty]

I appreciate all the thinking outside the box, but I am really interested in how long these holes would play.  Let me break it down:

1.  Assuming flat ground, no wind, sea level, no dogleg, how long would a long par 4 have to be to force the long Pros to hit Driver-3W or Driver-2I.

2.  How long do you think the hole will have to be in 20 yrs, to accomplish the same thing.  

3.  How short do you think the hole would have to play to be reachable in 2 for kids, older seniors, and novice women?  

Anyone?

[tonyt]

1. 530-560 yards.
2. 550-600 yards.
3. 380-420 yards for the very longest par 4s. But many average juniors/ladies/seniors struggle to reach a 300-320 yard par 4 in two shots, so the longer par 4s will be out of reach for them anyway. That's ok. That's why they get 2 shots on these holes. So they can reach the area near the green in 3-4 and still make their "par" with a two-putt.

[Forrest Richardson]

Multiple tees, disliked by many here, will permit the longer of the two-shotters to be set-up in a variety of lengths — still long. I advocate deep (or muiltiple) tees for long holes and wide (or offset) tees for shorter holes...regardless of par value.

At Coldwater here in Phoenix we have a 470+ par-4, but it rarely plays that long except on the card.

Also, wind is a deciding factor in "long" holes. What may measure "long" may not always play "long".

[BCrosby]

The PGA provides lots of historical numbers that would help get you to a distance.

For example, everyone hits it about 10% farther today than they did in 1985. (The percentage increase is remarkably consistent for both the short and long knockers on Tour. All are about 10% longer then to now. Of course an extra 10% for someone starting off at 275 results in more extra yards than an extra 10% for someone starting at 245. So there has been a "spreading" effect in raw yardage dsitances between the longer and shorter hitters over the last several years. Even though the percentage increase has been roughly the same.)

If a loooong par 4 in 1985 was about 460/470, then add 10% to that yardage to retain the same clubbage. Which takes you to a par 4 at 506 to 517. Which sounds about right to me. The pros today won't start hitting long irons until the hole is that long or longer.

But that is just to match today's distances. Who knows where we will be in five years.

The broader lesson is that courses set up today at 7300 yards are NOT long relative to how far even the shorter players are hitting the ball these days.

For a course to play today like a long course would have in 1985, it has to be about 7700 yards. That's mind boggling.

Bob  

[Forrest Richardson]

Bob,

I am not aware of any quantative survey which shows the average golfer hits the ball 10% farther today than 1985. Nor any defined "average golfer".

Sure, golfers can hit farther...and many do. But the distance the average golfer hits is not the issue. It is, and will be, the variation in their aim that drives architects buggy.

A 500-yard par-4 today would be just as long (wind and terrain discounted) as it would in 1985.

And, course conditions in 1985 were generally dry compared to today. So this variable is also at play.

[david h. carroll]

just take #12 from Upper Cascades and transplant it

[BCrosby]

Forrest -

I don't know what you count as a qantitative survey, but there is plenty of data available for anyone to use.

The PGA keeps driving distance numbers back to about 1980. I picked 1985 as a beginning point. I picked that year because it was one of the last years before the introduction of metal woods. You may prefer another year.

I took the PGA distance numbers for 1985 and compared them to the PGA numbers from last year. Short hitters/long hitters, everyone is hitting it roughly 9% or so longer today. (I round it to 10% just to keep the math easier to do.)

Amazing fact: In '85 (or it might be '86) Strange won the money title while averaging less than 250 off the tee.  

Bottom line is if you want a course to play today as long as a long course in 1985 (let's call that a 7000 yard course in 1985), it needs to be somewhere around 7700 yards.

Only courses set close to that length will require today's pros (a) to pull long or medium irons on par 3's and 4's and (b) to hit wood second shots or lay-up on most par 5's.

Courses today set at 7300 yards are not long for the pros. A 7300 yard course today plays roughly the same way a 6800 yard course played in 1985.  

Bob  

 

[BCrosby]

We might quibble about some of these numbers.

But however they come out, they are the most striking demonstration I've seen that golf has become two very different games.

The pros could play courses at 7600/7700 yards. They would probably score much the same way they scored on "long" 7000 yard courses in 1985.

OTOH, no one I play with would be able to handle them. They would make a farce of a normal player's game.


Bob  

[tonyt]

On a 510 yard hole which is straight and flat with no wind, and the player has been given the opportunity to use driver rather than 3 wood/iron off the tee, there is little chance that the PGA Tour player will have more than about 4-5 iron in. With the question asking for 2 iron / 3 wood, one must go north of 530 to even entertain the thought.

Sure there are players who would need a long iron to a 500 yard hole, but most of the top 30 players who choose driver off the tee would merely have a 6-7 iron.

[DMoriarty]

Multiple tees, disliked by many here, will permit the longer of the two-shotters to be set-up in a variety of lengths — still long. I advocate deep (or muiltiple) tees for long holes and wide (or offset) tees for shorter holes...regardless of par value.

Forrest, regarding the multiple tees, consider me convinced for the sake of this discussion.  But where would you put the other tee boxes?  How far up would you put the front tee box?  

Also, 470+ or 500 on flat ground with no wind doesnt seem nearly long enough to force the top drivers to pull a long iron or wood on their second shot, does it?   Remember, a couple dozen of these guys average 290+.  And I'll bet they have some left in the tank for when the really need it.  Let's stretch them out . . .  

[DMoriarty]

1. 530-560 yards.
2. 550-600 yards.
3. 380-420 yards for the very longest par 4s. But many average juniors/ladies/seniors struggle to reach a 300-320 yard par 4 in two shots, so the longer par 4s will be out of reach for them anyway. That's ok. That's why they get 2 shots on these holes. So they can reach the area near the green in 3-4 and still make their "par" with a two-putt.

Tonyt,   I agree with you on the long tees, but I wonder if many super seniors, ladies and kids are going to appreciate the 420 yd par 4 . . .

[JNC Lyon]

My advice to the club would be to buy the Ocean Course. It will be interesting to see where they play the World Cup from when it goes there.

[Forrest Richardson]

Flat land at sea level:

I consider a "forward tee drive" to be about 160-yards, tops. A
"forward tee player" would be expected to hit a second ball 150-yards, tops.

So....

A "long" par-4 for this forward tee player would be just beyond range, perhaps 330-340-yards. That would be a "long" forward tee yardage in my view.

I agree that 500-yards is acceptable for farthest back tees on long par-4s. And, I further agree that this distance (500-yards) is not long enough for the longest of hitters.

But...

There is nothing to say that golf is fair, nor that "long" is long for all. I do not think you can make a course truly long or short for all golfers. There will always be exceptions at the far ends of the scale.

[DMoriarty]

Forest,

So by your estimations this par 4 would have tees that varied in distance by as much as 170 yds?  

I suppose that if we gave the course what they wanted and built the "Kuehne Tee" that the distance difference could easily top 200 yds?  

Has anyone ever built, seen, or played a course with Tee boxes stretching over 160-200 yds?  (not one tee box, but a series.)

(Forrest, I am not trying to attack multiple tees here.  Just trying to understand what it would take to challenge all levels equally on a long par 4.)

Amazing.  

[Forrest Richardson]

I have tee box variations that approach 15-yards, perhaps even more on par-5s. On 4s it would be on the longer of the 4s...460-yards and over, of which I limit a course typically to only one or two of these. But, there are no rules as you already know.

[Doug Siebert]

Par 5s with tees stretching 160 - 200 yards or more aren't uncommon.  Heck, my home course has tees from 420 to 562 yards on one par 5, from 449 to 310 on one par 4, etc.  Another course in the area requires a carry of about 240 to reach the fairway on a 613 yard par 5.  But you can carry it only 235 if you are accurate enough to hit the 20 foot wide forward tee

I'd be amazed if someone here can't come up with an example of a hole with a 300 yard spread.

[tonyt]

My reference to the longest par 4 being 380-420 for the seniors/ladies/juniors is based on the fact that the VERY LONGEST par 4 on the entire course should not be reachable for them.
They will appreciate the hole, because their handicaps give them four shots to reach the green, and still have two putts. It is supposed to be a par 6 for these players. If you give them a hole that's vaguely reachable in two, with a green complex set up for the top players to be able to use long irons or fairway wood (ie perhaps generous front access or other lack of truly penal; greenside features), it takes away this challenge.

The pros chance of making 4-5 should therefore be the same as the beginner/lady/senior making 6-7.

[Forrest Richardson]

Tony,

Your assumption is that handicap is based on distance purely, which it is not. A higher handicapped golfer will miss more shots, not be as consistent and will find far more hazards than a lower handicapped golfer. He/she will also take more putts in general, although there are exceptions to this.

The yardage on par-3s and 4s (and usually 5s) should account for a player being capable of reaching the green in regulation with shots executed expertly for their distance limitations. Therfore, a forward tee player's tee length and second shot maximum length needs to be calculated (estimated) and this applied to the "long par-4" situation — using his handicap and assuming he/she will make many mistakes more often and will only occasionally reach this green in two strokes. Once there he will take more putts than a lower handicapped golfer, usually.

To thwart the possibility of a forward tee player being able to reach the green in two strokes with length would mean that you need to then fairly change par to 5 for this player from these tee markers.

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