[Peter Pallotta]

Sorry, didn't know how to make the picture smaller, so use the scroll bar to centre it. Courtesy of Joe B. I can't get over how for me this seems everything a golf hole should be (and designed to be)

[Joe Bausch]

Here's an additional pic of the hole, from the DZ looking back down to the tee:

[Tommy Williamsen]

Having not played the hole I am reluctant to comment.  I thought a similar thing when I saw the hole.  It does have one aspect that seems concerning.  With the severe looking pitch in the fairway from left to right, do most tee shots end up on the right side of the fairway?  If so it might limit angles into the green.

[JMEvensky]

Agree it's a great looking hole. But how can it be "everything" without knowing about the green? If the green is boring/flat/featureless,can it still be your dream hole?

[Peter Pallotta]

Tommy - yes, and I think I myself would be down there on that right side more often than not; but I think it is legitimate of a golf hole to ask the golfer to (try to) hit a draw every once in a while -- and if we can't the fault lies not in the slope but in ourselves...

Jeff - yes, you're right too, and the green doesn't appear to be particularly special; but to my eye it 'balances' the hole very nicely.

Joe - thanks for the IM and advice; but despite a decent education and modest computer skills, I tried 3 times and could only manage to make a hash of it!

P

[John Kavanaugh]

How can a hole where a poor shot results in a lost ball be perfect?

[Dan Kelly]

Peter --


*Why* does this look like a perfect golf hole, to you?


Dan

[Peter Pallotta]

JK - if you were playing one of your money matches you wouldn't be asking that question (especially since you'd be giving your opponent a stroke on this hole...)   

But seriously: if PV can be a perennial and unanimous #1 for decades, this little gem can't be down-graded simply because of a lost ball.

P

[Adrian_Stiff]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder I guess but its only a 5/10 from me.

[Steve Salmen]

What is the name of the golf course upon which this hole lies?  What is the hole number?

[Peter Pallotta]

Dan - of course, I'm only going from the photo, but:

Playing Wise/Challenge: 1. Uphill. 2. Canted Fairway. 3. Visual Intimidation. 4. Par 4 - the King of Pars. 5 Choice/Option - for Safer Tee Shot with Resulting Harder Approach.

Aesthetics: 1. Dramatic. 2. Multi-textured/vegetation. 3. Wonderful Scale/Proportions. 4. Canted Fairway (makes Gravitational sense.)

Design: 1. Hand (the hole)-in-glove (the land) setting. 2. Seamless use of natural site/features. 3. Unforced strategy.4. Utter simplicity and elegance. 

[Peter Pallotta]

Steve - it's the 2nd hole (I think) at Hay Harbour Club on Fishers Island.
Peter

[David Davis]

Peter,


I wouldn't agree with your statement. Personally I really enjoyed the hole however, find it anything but a perfect hole. This is one of those times when a photo doesn't do the angles or elevation changes justice. I'd call this a do or die type of hole with not many ways to play it. You pretty much have to hit the fairway, usually there a considerable wind so that makes it quite a challenge. The approach shot is pretty tough and anything short is one for the golf God's as short of the green the cliff starts. which you can see in the photo. Long is safe but leaves a tricky chip. It's a fun hole, yes but a really easy hole to lose a ball or balls on if you are slightly off. Margin for error is minimal.


Oh and it's a lot steeper than it looks.

[Peter Pallotta]

Thank you, David -- and I know I should defer to the opinions of those who have actually played it; but as I've tried to suggest, I am for this thread simply accepting what the photo seems to tell me. But also: your description made me like the hole even MORE -- the presence and influence of the wind, going long as "safe" but leaving a difficult chip, a tough approach, steeper than it looks...sounds excellent.

Also, I think I see (or at least it reminds me a little of) the 8th at Crystal Downs -- the only Par 5 I've ever loved!

Peter

[Peter Pallotta]

Also: it strikes me that we constantly talk about options around here, and choices, and yet we rarely note/appreciate the costs involved. That's where the rubber meets the road, i.e. score wise. And on this hole, one could take a (safe) iron off the tee, then play to the left side of the fairway/green, safely away from all the trouble, and then chip on and try to make a par putt. At worse a 5, on a hard hole. Not bad. Yes, but how many of us would actually do that -- not many, right? Ah -- that's not the hole's fault.
Peter

[Matt Frey, PGA]

No. 2 at Hay Harbor is a very strong golf hole, yes, but as far as design (and even the way it photographs), I much preferred No. 5 (see images below).


There is strategy to which side of the fairway to hit your approach from, along with the dynamic of fairway bunkers (coming into play from the tee for better players and on a layup for higher handicaps). However, the fairway is much wider giving many more options and allowing a poor tee shot to still be recovered.


The look up to the skyline green is also remarkable. Additionally, there is some interesting movement in the green, and from what I can remember, a bit of a false front. Also, over the green is playable, but not ideal.

[Mark Pavy]

Peter, are you a left handed golfer?

That's a left handers hole.

[Daniel Jones]

Dan - of course, I'm only going from the photo, but:

Playing Wise/Challenge: 1. Uphill. 2. Canted Fairway. 3. Visual Intimidation. 4. Par 4 - the King of Pars. 5 Choice/Option - for Safer Tee Shot with Resulting Harder Approach.

Aesthetics: 1. Dramatic. 2. Multi-textured/vegetation. 3. Wonderful Scale/Proportions. 4. Canted Fairway (makes Gravitational sense.)

Design: 1. Hand (the hole)-in-glove (the land) setting. 2. Seamless use of natural site/features. 3. Unforced strategy.4. Utter simplicity and elegance.

Peter, I definitely see plenty to like in the Aesthetic and Design categories, but with the Playing.. I'm curious if there's enough benefit in finding the right side off the tee to assume the risk. I wouldn't want either shot with a score on the line!

[Paul Gray]

My initial thinking when I saw this hole was much the same as Peter's. However, whilst the bunkering does suggest a perfect left/centreline dilemma, I suspect now the slope is too severe for that dilemma to be particularly relevant. The principle however is simple and refined quality. 

[Peter Pallotta]

Thank you, gents - fine posts, and I'm enjoying this thread very much.

Yes, the 5th seems a terrific hole as well. Interestingly, it seems to me a more modern golf hole - in both aesthetics and design conception; indeed, it looks like a golf hole that C&C or Tommy D would build today (while the 2nd looks more like what a Colt or MacKenzie might've found -- or have appeared to find -- back then).

I take the 'criticisms' that the 2nd might be too challenging and/or one dimensional seriously; and yet, for whatever combination of reasons I still think it the epitome of a golf hole - the perfect one. Now, that doesn't mean that I'd need or want 18 such holes in a row; its perfection doesn't lie there. Instead, it lies in such a perfect -- to me -- blending of form and function, and also lies in the fact that it serves a clear and distinct purpose/role in the context of a round of golf, and does so as if Mother Nature herself had fashioned it for that purpose.

In other words - does it have "flaws'? Perhaps - I'll even take your word for it. But its perfection, to my mind, is not dimmed but in fact highlighted by these 'flaws'.

Man, I can't get over how much I like this golf hole.

Peter   

[cary lichtenstein]

Perfect for the low handicapper and even more perfect for holding up play searching for lost balls all day long

[Peter Pallotta]

I noted that it reminds me of the 8th at Crystal Downs, but that is based more on a "feeling" than on much visual similarity. But does it remind anyone else a little of the 14th at Bandon Trails?
Peter

[Kirk Gill]

On one hand, my slice would get me into a lot of trouble on this hole. On the other, I'm a guy who loves a beach.


My only complaint aesthetically is the mow line on the left. I wish it had less of a straight-line look. I love the mowed area on the knoll left of the green. I have a feeling I'd end up there on occasion, trying to roll one onto the green, or over-compensating for my expected slice after an errant drive.


Peter, get yourself up there, play it, and report back. I can't wait for your report !

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