[Mike Hendren]

In his course profile, Ran wonders: " Is Fenway A. W. Tillinghast's finest design."   No less  an authority than Tom Doak considers it underrated.  All I know is this - one look at the diminutive 15th green on Ran's profile was enough to encourage me to truncate last fall's Erie Canal Tour for a quick dash down to Westchester County for a one-off visit (I hear there are other worthwhile courses in the area) to Fenway Golf Club.  Honestly?  The remaining 17 holes could have been pedestrian and the trip would have been well worth it just to see and play the short 15th.

As shown in the arial after holing out at the 14th the golfer is left with a nice stroll downhill to the 15th tee, backed up against the boundary so that the 15th can stretch to a whopping 301 yards from the tips.



The red line reflects a very doable 220 yards tee shot that is uphill to a blind landing area.  The ideal line is to the outside of the dogleg as one is keen to leaving an approach - here no more than 80 yards to a front pin position, down the length of the green.  The benefit of a head on approach will be seen in the following photographs.  Notably, gone are the two large trees protecting the left side of the fairway. They have been replaced by well located fairway bunkering that cuts in from the left side.

The approximate line of my approach from 100 yards after my frequently smother hooked tee ball:

Perhaps left is the best line for a front pin.

On the other hand an approach from the far right opens up the elevated rear portion of the 2500 square feet green:


The young caddy provides a sense of scale.  As you see I have left my approach from 110 yards in position A:

[V. Kmetz]

MH,

One of my favorite holes in the Met area...likely would make my dream 18 for architecturally-rich Westchester, and that is saying something.

I posted recently in Unloved Courses, asking TD, though he is quoted as he is, if he agreed that  Fenway deserves a portion of its "underrating" from the notion that 7-14 aren't up to the standards of the first six (one of the most pleasing openings ever) and the last four (beginning with this superb hole you have chosen to highlight).

He hasn't answered, but I wondered if you (or other Fenway supporters) wouldn't address this.

So you don't have to read the other thread I'll bullet my critique of Fenway's middle:

A. 7 & 10, and 8 & 12 are virtually the same hole. Each are acceptable, perhaps interesting, in a vacuum but together and repeated in a tight bunching of the route is limiting.
B. 11 is a poor, surrender hole for many golfers and an indifferent hole for better players. A longish (160-190) uphill, blind par 3 should really at least provide some wow and this hole is charmless to that end.
C # 9 is an awkward, gimmicky hole
D. The re-imagined pond and water courses in and around 10 and 9 are artificial and seemingly disconnected from the aesthetics of the rest of the property.
E. 14 is a plain and boring hole
F. #13 is the only refreshment in this stretch.  Not "awesome" but fun to play.

It is a very fine course, indeed, but Tillinghast's finest? RM is out of his mind...it's underrated because this heart of it is not up to standards of the rest of the course or the rest of his local work.

Yours and anyone else's thoughts?

cheers

vk

[David Whitmer]

Looks like a very cool hole. While I have not played either, it kind of reminds me of the 10th at Riviera. By that I mean a short par 4, where a solid drive can get you close to green-high (or on the green with a great shot). If you choose to lay up to the correct spot, you have a short pitch to a skinny green, but you are looking down the length of the green. If you hit a poor drive, you have your work cut out for you to just keep your next on the green. Anybody else see a similarity in those holes' characteristics, or do I see what's not there?

[Mike Hendren]

Continuing:


As one approaches the green the fall-offs on both sides of the front pin position become more apparent with this photograph highlighting the less than truthful left and right edges:


As shown in these photographs, in reality the effective front pin position is perhaps three paces wide.

Front right:


Front right looking back - the back side of the new fairway bunkering is marked by the four short posts.


Looking back from the slightly wider, elevated rear of the green:


From the left side bunker a game of Annie-Over is on.  I was able to get the ball to hang up in against the fringe on my third try:


And yes, I lagged to a foot for a treasured par.  

[Matthew Petersen]

Looks like a very cool hole. While I have not played either, it kind of reminds me of the 10th at Riviera. By that I mean a short par 4, where a solid drive can get you close to green-high (or on the green with a great shot). If you choose to lay up to the correct spot, you have a short pitch to a skinny green, but you are looking down the length of the green. If you hit a poor drive, you have your work cut out for you to just keep your next on the green. Anybody else see a similarity in those holes' characteristics, or do I see what's not there?

I have also never been to Fenway, but the 10th at Riviera jumped into my mind from the first picture I saw of the green as well.

[Mike Hendren]

David, this hole evokes RTJ's 4th at Spyglass Hill for me.  The tee shot at both holes are about placement, not true strategic options that you find in abundance on Riviera's 10th tee.

VK, I'll give your question some thought.  Ironically, I was thinking that Fenway falls a little flat after stepping of the 15th green.  As for Ran's take I can only opine that Fenway's a solid notch+ below San Francisco Golf Club from my limited experience.

Bogey

[Connor Dougherty]

I've never seen the 10th at Riv, but I did have the privilege of seeing the 15th at Fenway during my road trip a few years back. I actually got the feeling that it may play slightly better than the 10th at Riviera just because it seemed a bit easier to hit, but that may be because I've seen Riv's 10th during PGA Tour events on TV and that green seems incredibly difficult to hold (I'm going to wait to really formulate an opinion on that until I see it in person, hopefully next year at the LA Open).

Michael, in regards to your comparison to 4 at Spyglass, I don't know if I agree with you. The 10th at Riv certainly has more options off the tee, but there are significant differences. The 4th at Spyglass cuts off driver for longer hitters around 280 iirc, and taking driver, except for the truly ballsy (Phil Mickelson) is not a legitimate option. You are confined to cutting off as much as you want with a 3 wood or an iron, and left with a wedge shot. Meanwhile, the 15th at Fenway does give you the option of driver but a smaller landing area to hit it in. Those who do choose to hit it are left with a relatively simple bump and run, especially to a front pin. Missing left leaves you the most difficult shot in golf: the 30-40 yard bunker shot. Only the strongest hitters can get to that green, but in firmer conditions, it's most certainly doable for long hitters. With a front pin I'd be inclined to pull out the big dog, but a back pin on that top shelf would make me hit an iron off the tee. I'm almost certain peoples club selection would vary for these scenarios.

Perhaps the best comparison I can think of is the 3rd at Camargo: It has a similar tee shot and length, although the green at Camargo is much larger and guarded at an angle front left. Those hitting driver, depending on the pin, could be left with either a very difficult flop shot or a simple pitch. The only difference is there's only 30 yards for you to land the ball where you can put enough spin on it to stop it with a flat lie....leaving yourself more than 85 out means having a significant uphill lie. I hit 3 wood both rounds during my US Am qualifier and was able to get it to stop tight to the pin, while my playing partners only were able to stop one of four wedge shots after hitting driver within a reasonable range. I would imagine a similar scenario for the back pin at Fenway.

[Sean_A]

Damn if that hole isn't very similar to Stoneham's 13th...right down to the blind drive, trouble left and impossible angle right.   

http://www.stonehamgolfclub.org.uk/gallery/

Ciao

[David_Tepper]

There is a hole on the back-9 at San Francisco GC (maybe #14?) that is similar, except that it doglegs right.

[Jon Cavalier]

Michael:

Great post. I've mentioned this before, but I played three Tillies in a week this fall - Somerset Hills, Quaker Ridge and Fenway. While I did fall in love with Somerset Hills, I was also shocked at the quality of Fenway. And I couldn't agree more with your comments about the 15th hole. I thought the entire closing stretch - 14-18 - is excellent.

I've been considering doing a photo tour of Fenway, but for now, I thought I'd just share these photos of the 15th to supplement yours (hope you don't mind):

















Great hole. Great course.

[Sean_A]

I really like the push up ramp style green.  It looks like Tillie went to town shaping this site.  Cheers Jon.

Ciao

[David Davis]

Great hole. I'd have to agree with Connor however. For medium long to long hitter this is a 3 wood or driver leaving a straight forward chip, or bump into that front pin position. Laying up with an iron leaves a very doable short wedge but still a very exacting shot in terms of distance control. It's a hole that for the single hcp'er has had a lot of the strategic nature taken out of it due to ball and equipment improvements. Play it like you suggest with a 220 yd tee shot or less then you really see how tricky it is.

How severe is the back to front slope of the green? I'm guessing it's hard to get a feel for from the photos. Would a 52 or 56 run all the way back down or are the greens too firm for that?

[Ally Mcintosh]

Anyone ever been hit on the 14th fairway from the 15th tee?

[Greg Taylor]

Great looking hole... the green/complex is awesome.

Got to get the shot in so you're staring down the throat of that green and from the fairway...

[Mike Hendren]

Jon, thank you for those awesome photographs.  If I was a dog I'd crawl back under the porch.

Kindest regards,

Mike

[Michael J. Moss]

I agree with the premise here. Fenway's short par-4, 15th is just brilliant. It's a diabolical little bastard of a hole (...a rare but important genre, I believe!) where the chance of walking off the green with a birdie is about the same as making an eight! I love the occasional hole that disproves the old saw that degree of difficulty must be linked to a hole's length, which, if not already done, could be the subject of a thread on its own.  

But this hole was truly enhanced about four years ago (?) when Gil final prevailed upon the membership to remove a bunch of pines protecting the left side of the dogleg and replacing them with two fairway bunkers, which added some strategic risk/reward calculus to the mix. We know this idea was in Gil's mind for a long time as his book Grounds For Golf (2003) features a diagram of the hole that included his two hoped for bunkers.

I wanted to include this photo as it shows the awkward distance left for the golfer (to an almost non-existent green) if not careful off the tee. The light also highlights the two tiers that the other pics didn't quite capture.

How many clubs would have blown up this green declaring it totally unfair. The fact that it exists today and in tact, makes you want to tip your cap to the enlightened Fenway decision makers who somehow got the idea that old AW Tillinghast sort of knew what he was doing.

[Charlie Gallagher]

Boy, is this a great hole on a great golf course. Missing on the approach presents high difficulty recovery shots almost everywhere, especially if you miss long and right.  The hole fits perfectly in the routing.  There are all sorts of ways to attempt to solve it.
Fenway is not to be missed, it has all sorts of great holes, and multiple greens that present high challenge putting and short game shots.

[Mike Hendren]

MJM, thanks for those photographs of the new bunkering.   It also highlights the well-placed bunker short left of the green which could catch the slightly over-cooked attempt to drive the green.  What a difficult leave that would be.

Bogey

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bogey,

# 14 is a terrific little hole and Fenway is a great golf course.

Unfortunately, it resides in a neighborhood where the competition is fierce.

Yard for yard, it's the hardest course in Westchester, a natural par 70 with difficult greens.

AWT crafted four great golf courses within a few blocks of each other.

[Sven Nilsen]

Is this the same green style that he built at the 11th at WFW?



The other hole that popped into my head is the 14th at Bandon Trails.  A narrow green with falloffs on both sides, and a bit wider as you get past the mid point.

Sven

[BCowan]

Mr Bogey,

   Thanks for doing this thread, the hole looks amazing.  I've seen a better hole, but I can't remember when.  Out of curiosity do you know how often the longer hitters go for the green off the tee?  It looks as though it was designed for a drive and pitch hole that turned into drivable par 4 for the bold. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sven,

Great photo.
That green has morphed over the years as there's no straight away shot into that green.

When I first saw the photo, before reading the caption, I thought that it might be 17th on WFE.

The 15th green at Fenway is narrow and the hole is a slight dogleg, which can present the golfer with a non-direct angle into that little green.

I would imagine that greens like the 15th at Fenway fell out of favor when golf became more popular and traffic increased.
There aren't many hole locations on that green and the center of that green probably gets stressed, quickly.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()