[Don Mahaffey]

Pat,
I should know better.....but....in your original post you said clubs in Florida, now it is clubs in southern Florida.
I am not a proponent of overseeding.
I overseeded for many. many years and know all to well the challenges.

In my post, one of my "ifs" was if your course was in an area that had frost for 3 months or more (not southern Florida in most years) and if your course was on heavy soils (not sure how many courses you mention are built on clay)....but if you had those conditions and the majority of your revenue came in winter months, then you may have to overseed.

But if you are in Southern Florida in almost frost free zones and especially if you are on sand as well, I can't imagine any good argument being made for overseeding...except if you have an exclusively snow bird membership and they only want to play golf from Nov-April.

if that is the case (think ANGC) you can get an overseeded course in pretty darn good condition. It'll suck going in and coming out of overseed, but if no one is playing golf and the membership has $$$ and wants ANGC like conditions in the winter...have at it.

[DMoriarty]

The other factor is cart traffic.  If you're going to put carts on fairways, they will wear out dormant bermuda, or even semi-dormant bermuda as we've found out at Streamsong.  Overseeding is a potential solution for that.  So is banning carts.

I like the idea of banning carts, but short of that, is anyone out there overseeding just high traffic areas as a grass retention measure?

[mike_beene]

We have 419 Bermuda in Dallas and do not overseed.It seems that the 419 greens quicker than common Bermuda,but not sure.Carts stay on paths in winter. We had some green until a few weeks ago and in February should start greening a little again.I think the greens look nice against the brown.We get little rain and the course plays maybe too fast for most to handle. Isn't the transition from winter to spring tough when you overseed?

[Anthony_Nysse]

I can only name a few clubs in SFLA that still seed, last I knew-Boca Rio, Everglades, Delray Dunes, Breakers, Admirals Cove, (renovation this summer) PGA National to name a few. Most do not, publics included.

Anthony,

Add Adios to the list.

On brand new Celebration? Interesting. Most courses go to Celebration to get away from seeding.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I can only name a few clubs in SFLA that still seed, last I knew-Boca Rio, Everglades, Delray Dunes, Breakers, Admirals Cove, (renovation this summer) PGA National to name a few. Most do not, publics included.

Anthony,

Add Adios to the list.

On brand new Celebration? Interesting. Most courses go to Celebration to get away from seeding.

They just went to celebration, they overseeded for as long as I can remember.

I think Trump also overseeds

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,
I think green is the driving reason.
But, from a playability standpoint, if you have heavy soils, and if you are in an area that gets frost for up to three months, and if the winter season is your high revenue season, then it may make sense to overseed.

Hi Don,

You were probably alluding to this when you mentioned high-revenue season, but doesn't amount of play also play a part in determining an overseeding program? Due to lack of re-growth of dormant grasses, would the playing surfaces of a club or public facility that receives heavy play deteriorate at a rate that eventually affects play? Or am I overestimating the divot problem?

Divots are a factor -- maybe not a huge factor, but golfers like when the divots are filled with seed that germinates in four days.

The other factor is cart traffic.  If you're going to put carts on fairways, they will wear out dormant bermuda, or even semi-dormant bermuda as we've found out at Streamsong.  Overseeding is a potential solution for that.  So is banning carts.

Tom,

March, April and May are three terrific weather months in Southern Florida and with an earlier start date for "Daylight Savings" it would seem  that December, January and February would be the perilous months when cart control might be more necessary.

Are cart paths the solution to resort golf and no overseeing ?

[Anthony_Nysse]

I can only name a few clubs in SFLA that still seed, last I knew-Boca Rio, Everglades, Delray Dunes, Breakers, Admirals Cove, (renovation this summer) PGA National to name a few. Most do not, publics included.

Anthony,

Add Adios to the list.

On brand new Celebration? Interesting. Most courses go to Celebration to get away from seeding.

They just went to celebration, they overseeded for as long as I can remember.

I think Trump also overseeds

No seed at Trump. PGA seeds for the tournament. Will be just roughs this year, as they regrassed shortgrass to celebration.

[John Jeffreys]

"I can't wait to overseed" said no superintentendent, ever. I find it interesting around here (sandhills of NC) that golfers several years ago would call a club to see if they over seeded and would play there only if they had. Now the complete opposite is true. They value the playing characteristics of dormant Bermuda vs. the overseed especially in the fall.

[Anthony_Nysse]

"I can't wait to overseed" said no superintentendent, ever. I find it interesting around here (sandhills of NC) that golfers several years ago would call a club to see if they over seeded and would play there only if they had. Now the complete opposite is true. They value the playing characteristics of dormant Bermuda vs. the overseed especially in the fall.

So many benefits to NOT seeding. I have to beleive that the trend will continue as golf becomes more expensive, fertilizer more costly and water more scarce.

[Patrick_Mucci]

John Jeffreys,

My favorite of the Desert Mountain courses, Outlaw, just initiated overseeing.

It's my understanding that it was the only course that didn't overseed, and that it was the members that wanted "green".

The course used to play F&F.

I haven't played it this year but would be interested to hear from others who played it Pre and Post overseeding.

[BCowan]

Pat,

   I'm curious as to if the ''Outlaw'' course was cart path only when it was dormant?  If so, that could get people wanting overseeded fairways.  Also if there was a video showing people how much yardage off the tee they are losing and ground game into the greens, do you think they would reconsider their decisions?  Also with lower spinning balls and stronger lofts in fairway woods, do you think that might contribute to people(avg golfer) wanting the ball teed up more (rye)?  A 7 wood now, is a 5 wood loft 20 years ago. 

[Matthew Sander]

Ben,

I don't know about Outlaw's official cart restrictions, but it was built as a VERY walkable course. When I played there a majority of the members were walking. I'm sure cart traffic there would be much less than the other DM courses, especially during the cooler months where the turf was dormant.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

I'm curious as to if the ''Outlaw'' course was cart path only when it was dormant? 

It was NOT when I played it in the winter.

If so, that could get people wanting overseeded fairways. 

My understanding is that it was the aesthetics that triggered the overseeding

Also if there was a video showing people how much yardage off the tee they are losing and ground game into the greens, do you think they would reconsider their decisions?

It's too late now, but, I think that makes for a very good argument. 

Also with lower spinning balls and stronger lofts in fairway woods, do you think that might contribute to people(avg golfer) wanting the ball teed up more (rye)?  A 7 wood now, is a 5 wood loft 20 years ago. 

I think that's become one of the arguments for overseeding.

[Jason Topp]

There are several disadvantages to playing on completely dormant grass:

1.  The light brown color is visually jarring.  I have a hard time seeing the golf course.
2.  I find greens get goofy - you have to read how worn a green is and how wet it is.
3.  Wet surfaces are very difficult
4.  Divots

I am not sure where in Florda courses go completely dormant.  South of that line I would never overseed.  North of that line, my choice would depend on what my customers prefer.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Don,

I wasn't aware that I wasn't permitted to refine a thread 

[Dave Givnish]

A number of private courses in Phoenix have been leaving the roughs dormant for at least three to four years so it wouldn't surprise me if Phoenix CC is doing it as well. It saves a lot of water and allows carts off the paths which means less cranky golfers. I wish that we could follow the Sandhills area lead on this but green grass rules in AZ unfortunately.

Desert Mountain is "resting" a course each year. Apache is brown this year and it plays great. Outlaw is wall-to-wall green. I think the members prefer it over seeded now. The surface ends up playing like "green" Bermuda once you get past the soft and sticky stage through about Thanksgiving.

We-ko-pa had the proverbial timing issue on Cholla this year. A storm washed out the seed on the greens right after it was put down. The greens play well but there isn't much grass on them.

What's happened with the USGA experiments to dye grass? Paradise Valley dyes their greens after having bad overseed problems and the members love it. They do it over three Monday's in the fall with little disruption to play.

[Pat Burke]

Our course has decided to stop overseeding.  We are in Southern California, with a mix of clay and a
soil that compacts like crushed asphalt, really not sure what it is  sorry.
On our South course, the second and third holes for example, have areas where most golfers hit approaches from.
Right now, in mid January, I am laying up 20 yards shorter on #3 to avoid the mess that the 100 yard area is.  All the
divots are combining to create a Hell's Half Backyard at 100 yards from the green.  With no growth from the dormant,
if we get one more heavy rain, we can do a mud run.  #2 has a similar area that selfishly, I am happy I can fly with my tee shots.

Personally, our club's business plan would favor no over seed.  Less water, less down time.  But as a private club, there is
a trade off in conditions.  Our crappy soil stays muddy under the dormant with any rain (or irrigation..different story).
I wish we had better draining or sandy soil,  our supt would have a much better opportunity to deal with all of this

[A.G._Crockett]

I think I disagree with the idea that overseeded rye is in ANY way a preferable playing surface to dormant bermuda, with the possible exception of when things get really, really soggy and the issue of divots not filling in.  Rye is sticky, often thin, and just not a great surface in general.  It might help dry the course a little when things get really wet, but it just isn't worth it.

I know that it is heresy, and spare me any pontifications, please, but the divots issue is very simple.  We adopt a rule in the points game at my club here in GA sometime after the bermuda is completely dormant that you can roll the ball in your own fairway.  It's no different than a lift clean and place rule anyway, and we do the same thing anyway year-round when the super imposes a "cart path only" rule due to a wet golf course.  It's very simple to go back to playing the ball down as soon as the bermuda comes out a little in the spring, so we're really only talking about a 3 to 4 month period of preferred lies anyway.

[Tim Gavrich]

I played Harmony Golf Preserve here in FL (southeast of Orlando) yesterday, which was overseeded pretty much wall-to-wall. The fairways were relatively lightly overseeded and were nicely firm. The overseeded greens, however, were incongruously soft (though they putted okay). Isn't a very light and restrained overseed a good solution? Do most courses either go all the way or not at all?

[Joe Hancock]

Tim,

In regards to lightly overseeding, the basic gist is that a lot of plants occupying a given area will mature less quickly than if there are less plants. So the problem with lightly overseeding is the plants get bigger and stronger, making them compete more with the bermudagrass.

I don't have so much problem w/ overseeding as I do with the fertility/ irrigation of it. Ryegrass doesn't need as much as it generally gets, but that's also true for other permanent turfs.

Joe

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