[Mark Bourgeois]

Seaton...



...and Seaton (POV is higher than and right of angle off tee):



Coincidence?

[Chris Moore]

I pride myself on understanding much of what I read and observe.  But this one has me completely flummoxed.  Maybe it is the title of the post.  Opposite ghost?  Are there two golf courses named Seaton?  HELP!

[Mike_Clayton]

If the photo of the 7th at Royal Adelaide had been taken from the same angle they would look even more alike.

Amazing.

[James Bennett]

Mike
(and Mark)

the view from the new tee at Royal Adelaide (in suburb Seaton) is lower and to the left now (where the stand of pines were left of #7 tee).

The Adelaide housing profile also looks similar to what I assume is Seaton (?Carew) in the UK, although Adelaide's view is hidden by vegetation and brush fencing.

Of course, #7 at Royal Adelaide is a green that pre-dates MacKenzie's visit.  It was previously approached at say 7.30 o'clock whereas the picture above is more from perhaps 4.30 on the clock.  Which makes it even more like the 'podean' (UK) Seaton.

I assume 'podean' is the right word.  It must be if anti-podean is a word.

James B

[James Bennett]

 double-post

[Mark Bourgeois]

I think the 3rd at Seaton Carew antedates Mac as well.  Given Mac is a strong connection between the two (the only connection I in my admitted ignorance am aware of), and he was so UNrepetitive, yet these two holes be so markedly similar....spooky.

We must be missing something!

Mark

[James Bennett]

Mark

it may be that the pre-MacKenzie designer at Seaton had visited the UK and seen Seaton Carew.  A long shot, but that option will have more possibility than any MacKenzie involvement in the doppelganger.

James B

[Brent Hutto]

Just because there was already a hole of that general arrangement there when MacKenzie arrived, does that mean he didn't make some changes? By that I mean is it possible that the two holes were similarly sited but somehow MacKenzie had a hand in making them "spooky" similar rather than just having some general proportions in common.

At any rate, having played the Teeside version I'd say it is such a brilliant hole that it's not totally surprising if two separate individuals noticed an ideal site and arranged similar bunkering and contours in locations a half a world apart. I've no design talent whatsoever but can imagine that certain situations just immediately jump out at any architect with a good eye for what makes a great green site.

[Jon Wiggett]

Looking at the Adelaide version it reminded me very much of the third at Lindrick. Not the number of bunkers maybe, but their relation to the green and affect on the shot.

[Mark Bourgeois]

It's interesting we all think it's not a coincidence but don't think the only known connection accounts for the similarity - Brent's point notwithstanding!

But even if Mac did a little tee moving - and James, I think he did at RA 7, yes? - the green complex predates him, and that's where the distinctiveness comes through.

James, outside of golf, did the two areas have any connections, perhaps commercial? From where did Seaton, SA, take its name?

BTW does anyone else see these holes as essentially "military"? I have an image of golfers dialing in the artillery.

As usual, they came up short....

If anyone decides to do a military-template course, I say this template must go in!

Mark

[Don Jordan]

Apologies - photo's fixed

I stumbled across a photo of the seaton carew hole yesterday and had the same deja vu reaction, anyway here are a couple of photos I took mid 2014 of the Royal Adelaide version. It is quite a striking hole and the green slopes strong from back left down to front right. From the back tee it plays 167m from the tips, uphill and into a prevailing breeze, a significant challenge.

View from the 4th fairway



View from the tee box



and a close up from the tee box angle

[Josh Stevens]

Bit of a prob with those pics

despite being rather good to look at, it isn't Royal Adelaide's best hole - mid iron over a few tame bunkers to a huge table top green.

The other at least seems to have a little Redan-like tilt to it to add a little interest.

[Niall C]

Josh

I think the point of the thread is to point out the similarities between two holes on different courses rather than to show off RA's best hole.

Mark

Back in 2008 you suggested that MacKenzie was unrepetitive. I think it fair to say with what we know now that he liked a right good template as much as anyone else.

Niall

[Andy Levett]

Agree with Niall, MacK liked his templates. Third (Doctor, the doppelganger's possible inspiration but named after course founder rather than Mack) at Seaton Carew pre-dates his re-design (MacK in his report said members loved it, should never be touched, loads of other examples of pre-golden age short holes surrounded by bunkers exist and they're great, though the right to left slope at Seaton Carew arguably makes it the best of the lot).
Other Seaton Carew templates include the 17th, Snag, which is a constucted green similar to Gibraltar at Moortown, which pre-dates it, and the 16th, which was a prototype for the boomerang green at Crystal Downs.

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