[Chris DeToro]

Back to the test of Ferry Point and not the economics--could it host a major?  Can the course be hard enough to challenge the best players?

[Jaeger Kovich]

Jaeger,

   I am only defending (or embracing) what has been built and exists today.  I may no bones about what decisions were made, or when, on any of the construction or budgeting decisions. Ask JWL or others why. Ask them how many choices they had with which to solve drainage on top of a waste remediation cap? What alternatives were available at the time? I don't know...how do you???

   I've got ZERO financial stake or affiliation in anything on the property and don't pretend to.  Unlike you, I've walked and played the course and don't make my opinions and critical comments from behind a screen.  I prefer to look at it through a golfer's prism, not a construction POV. The site plays fast and firm (even after sizable rainfall). That's what a golfer cares about. Myself and quite a few others who have played or walked it so far really seem to find more to like than not.

   Like your past foolhardy comments about holes that you've decided are certain templates (Quaker #9 as a Redan     ) you opine on things, albeit with limited experiences and limited knowledge. Wow! How does caddying and some limited work as a field hand with Renaissance qualify you to become such an unquestionable expert? How many courses has your esteemed Proper Golf built or worked on atop capped waste dumps??? How many have you seen across the world?

  Your screen-based assumption that it's "ignoring surface drainage" is yet another example of your doing what Abe Lincoln reminded us to avoid way back when: "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt!"

Thanks for all the glowing remarks about me! I critiqued a golf course which I haven't seen, you critiqued a person you haven't met of know anything about.

Also, thanks for the publicity! 2 of the 3 biggest names in golf architecture trust me to build golf for them. I will make sure you are on the list when Proper Golf officially becomes consultant at a LI club next week... PS - I beat out a Nicklaus guy... unanimously!!

[archie_struthers]

 :

I'm so opposed to government favored contracting jobs like this , As much as I love golf, wouldn't want to play it even if it was great ! sorry to see it get any press or support n this site .

Sooner or later , we need to stop this stuff!

[Daryl "Turboe" Boe]

Jay, It was great playing golf with you today and I'm sorry I had to whisk out of there to get to LaGuardia to get back on the ride, but Kate (Beckinsale) wanted to get home and we stayed an extra day, just so I could join you guys today.

Its funny, to be home here now and seeing those images from earlier in the day, how fast a G5 will get you back to the coast. Comfortable too!

Wow it is great to see and hear from you Tommy.  It has been a long time, I am not quite the world traveler that I used to be before family obligations became so numerous.  I hope that changes sometime soon and we get to tee it up somewhere...

To put in perspective how long it has been since we have played, you were traveling at that time by Chevy S-10 pickup truck vs G5 now.  Although the G5 is undoubtedly faster and probably more comfortable, I am not sure it would have served us as well as your truck for getting through that tornado on our way into the Coachella Valley.   And Im sure it wouldn't have elicited the same reaction by the security gate guard at The Quarry!!

Good to see and hear from you on here old friend...

[Mark Bourgeois]

 Mark,

  The fairway contours have good, if not slightly subtle, movement. It's hard to pick up from the photos but they aren't nearly flat.

   I'd ask you should an architect endeavor to make these features artificially busy?? Yes, it becomes a "valley problem" when mounding of any nature is used to define fairway widths, but if the entire course in decidedly unnatural in it's totality, should the ground heave to-and-fro in excess?? For example, other artificially-styled courses like Whistling Straights, Bayonne, and Streamsong vary in fairway contouring without excess and aren't critiqued as such. Given the waste dump remediation at Ferry Point, just wondering where the limits should be placed?

Cheers

Steve, it's not the apparent -- yep, just going by photos -- orderliness of the fairways or the busyness of the surrounds. (Well, maybe the busyness a little bit.) No, it's the gap, the difference, between the orderliness and the surrounding chaos that's jarring -- that presents an Uncanny Valley to my eye.

Whistling Straits has this problem, too, and just going by the photos I'd say Lost Farm as well. Streamsong Doak to my eye did not have this problem. Some lovely shaping there. In fact, Streamsong Doak I think is a good example of how to get this sort of thing right. (Barnbougle Dunes is another one.)

I'm willing to accept I am missing the reality as I'm just going off the photos, but I feel small-scale chaos in modern fairways, be they links, links-style or even parkland, is a lost art and sorely missed. Score one for Fairness and Order.

[Steve Lapper]

 Mark,

  The fairway contours have good, if not slightly subtle, movement. It's hard to pick up from the photos but they aren't nearly flat.

   I'd ask you should an architect endeavor to make these features artificially busy?? Yes, it becomes a "valley problem" when mounding of any nature is used to define fairway widths, but if the entire course in decidedly unnatural in it's totality, should the ground heave to-and-fro in excess?? For example, other artificially-styled courses like Whistling Straights, Bayonne, and Streamsong vary in fairway contouring without excess and aren't critiqued as such. Given the waste dump remediation at Ferry Point, just wondering where the limits should be placed?

Cheers

Steve, it's not the apparent -- yep, just going by photos -- orderliness of the fairways or the busyness of the surrounds. (Well, maybe the busyness a little bit.) No, it's the gap, the difference, between the orderliness and the surrounding chaos that's jarring -- that presents an Uncanny Valley to my eye.

Whistling Straits has this problem, too, and just going by the photos I'd say Lost Farm as well. Streamsong Doak to my eye did not have this problem. Some lovely shaping there. In fact, Streamsong Doak I think is a good example of how to get this sort of thing right. (Barnbougle Dunes is another one.)

I'm willing to accept I am missing the reality as I'm just going off the photos, but I feel small-scale chaos in modern fairways, be they links, links-style or even parkland, is a lost art and sorely missed. Score one for Fairness and Order.

Mark,

    I understand the visual dichotomy you are experiencing. Makes sense that a perspective sans a dimension (as anything shy of 3D would reproduce) creates that perception. Artificial construction of dunes isn't necessarily an easy task and you're right, Doak at Streamsong did a better job (though I believe C&C used more dunescape there than did Doak). Natural sites like Barnbougle, Lost Farm, or a Ballyneal yield a very pliable canvas for the talented architect to work with. Waste dumps like Whistling Straights, Harborside, Old Works, etc... do not.

  Interestingly, I'd say the the idea of mimicking Mother Nature's valley-dune-style golf architecture (i.e. Birkdale, Royal Aberdeen, Portmarnock, Portstewart etc...) is an admirable, yet near-impossible job to pull off. FP does a reasonably decent job of adding wave and contour to it's valley floor fairways, even producing semin-blind shots from different angles on several holes on the front nine. The pix don't quite reveal that, nor do they do it justice...but the fairways are indeed, anything but flat.


 Jaeger,

   Since you propose and promote yourself as a such an expert and "trusted builder of golf for the games....best," please teach us all how you solve the dilemma of draining a faux links-style across a remediated waste dump. We eagerly await your brilliance!
 

[Tom_Doak]

 Mark,

  The fairway contours have good, if not slightly subtle, movement. It's hard to pick up from the photos but they aren't nearly flat.

   I'd ask you should an architect endeavor to make these features artificially busy?? Yes, it becomes a "valley problem" when mounding of any nature is used to define fairway widths, but if the entire course in decidedly unnatural in it's totality, should the ground heave to-and-fro in excess?? For example, other artificially-styled courses like Whistling Straights, Bayonne, and Streamsong vary in fairway contouring without excess and aren't critiqued as such. Given the waste dump remediation at Ferry Point, just wondering where the limits should be placed?

Cheers

Steve, it's not the apparent -- yep, just going by photos -- orderliness of the fairways or the busyness of the surrounds. (Well, maybe the busyness a little bit.) No, it's the gap, the difference, between the orderliness and the surrounding chaos that's jarring -- that presents an Uncanny Valley to my eye.

Whistling Straits has this problem, too, and just going by the photos I'd say Lost Farm as well. Streamsong Doak to my eye did not have this problem. Some lovely shaping there. In fact, Streamsong Doak I think is a good example of how to get this sort of thing right. (Barnbougle Dunes is another one.)

I'm willing to accept I am missing the reality as I'm just going off the photos, but I feel small-scale chaos in modern fairways, be they links, links-style or even parkland, is a lost art and sorely missed. Score one for Fairness and Order.

Really, Streamsong is a poor comparison for Ferry Point.  We were blessed with a lot of features that were left over from the mining operation, that we incorporated into the routing, but didn't have to build [or establish vegetation - it was already there].  That's way easier to do successfully.

Also, it's easier to get the fairways on an artificial course looking right when you can cut valleys and fill mounds, as opposed to having to create everything by fill, as I assume Ferry Point had to do.

By the same token, I am struggling to think of anywhere in the 36 holes at Streamsong that mounding was added to separate fairways.  The idea that every hole needs that sort of "definition" is what makes modern courses look artificial ... they are trying too hard.  There are plenty of places on most great links courses where holes run parallel without any large features separating them, and that adds to the intimacy of those courses.  We only build mounding either to block views of unsightly things off site, or as a feature in the play of a golf hole ... not to separate.

[Brian Chapin]

I have played Ferry Point and can tell you without hesitation that it was a lot of fun to play. I'm not an architecture expert, but I've played enough golf to know that what's most important to me is playability and fun factor.  Ferry Point (at least the day we played it with the fescue grasses cut down) checked both boxes for me. The walks from green to tee are a bit far for my taste, but the golf course is definitely walkable considering the gentle nature of the topography. 
 
As you would expect, the golf course was in immaculate condition. I'm impressed that they resisted the temptation to open this year.  As a comparison, I played Bayonne several weeks before it opened, and it wasn't nearly as well conditioned as Ferry Point is right now.

The course has nice width and the hazards are nicely placed within the driving zone.  I appreciated and enjoyed the challenge off the tee and trying to determine the best angles into the greens. They did a really nice job layering the bunkers together on the sight lines off the tees. If I'm being picky I'd say they could have used small dunes in the fairways in place of or in addition to some of the bunkers to add some extra character.

The greens are very nice.  They have nice movement to them, but are not too severe.  They were rolling really well the day we played and i can imagine that at tournament speeds they will provide sufficient challenge for the tour pros, while at the same time remaining eminently fair. I'm not sure what speed they intend to keep them at for every day play, but they wont be boring even at slower speeds.
 
The lions mouth bunkers in the front of the greens are a bit repetitive but there are lots of other features (bumps, dips, plateus, etc.) out in front of the greens that make approach shots interesting. I do not agree with a previous poster that the ground game is not a viable option.  I think hickories would be a blast...
 
The bunkers are not as severe as I would ideally like them to be as far as depth and slopes, but considering the course is meant for general public play, they are probably appropriately difficult. Aesthetically, they are a bit too pretty for my taste and will benefit from the wear and tear of public play. The rough around the fairway bunkers is lush and I had several balls get hung up in the grass rather than in the bunker.  I'd prefer the edges be maintained lower and more ragged, but that's personal taste and probably a bit of an unfair statement as the golf course isn't even open yet and is technically still in grow-in.

As for fairway drainage I honestly only noticed one catch basin on 18 holes.  Its not that there aren't more, its just that i didn't notice any of them.... and IMO if I didn't notice them... i highly doubt they will impact play or perception for the average golfer. The dunes or mounds (whatever you prefer to call them) are not continuous and are significantly less monotonous and hallway-esque than Bayonne.  I can't say faux dunes are my favorite... but they aren't anywhere near as horrible as some have made them out to be.
 
In the end, I'm not ready to call it an architectural marvel (I'll leave that critique to the people far more qualified in routing and building), but I can report that I had a great time and I expect that the public NYC public golfer will too. As for tour events I have no idea... but since when did we start judging golf courses on their ability to host for those guys anyway?

[Brad LeClair]

Nice summary Brian, thank you for that. I look forward to checking it out next year.

[Kevin_D]

Spread on FP in this month's Met Golfer:

http://www.metgolferdigital.com/i/416463/38

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