[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul, et. al.,

What I think is being overlooked is how swing speeds got to be 120 MPH and more.

I wonder, how many PGA Tour pros, with a 43 inch Toney Penna or Power Built steel shafted, persimmon wood, D-3 or heavier, could swing the club, with control, at those speeds, and....

I wonder how many of them would swing that hard during competitive play, understanding what would happen to mis-hit balls.

I think that there is an interrelationship between the equipment and the ball that has allowed swing speeds to increase to the 120 Plus range, propelling hi-tech balls distances never before thought of.

[Doug Siebert]

Patrick,

I agree completely, that's what I was talking about with my worry about kids starting out with 400cc drivers and learning to just absolutely whale on the ball in a way that makes Tiger's '97 era "swing out of his shoes" drive look like a 3/4 swing.  Swing speeds have never been limited by what's physically possible (except on the long drive tour, I suppose) as you still have to make decent contact and have a reasonably square face at impact.

The other thing I'm concerned about is that the big heads could allow drivers of ridiculous length (50" and beyond) becoming quite reasonable and normal to use down the road, especially with kids getting using to using say a 45" driver when they are less than 5' tall, so swinging a 54" driver when they are 6'2" doesn't feel odd.  After all, if we could control a 43" driver with a 200cc clubface, why only go to 45" when we have a hitting surface twice the size, and a much larger than 2x effective hitting area when comparing a modern large Ti driver with the persimmon I started out with.

I remember some discussion about limiting club length to 47", but I can't remember if that was to be a USGA limitation, PGA tour limitation, or long drive championship limitation.  Or whether it was enacted or just discussed.  I hope for the sake of the game they do make that a rule if they haven't already, because you never know; what might seem silly now could be the norm in 2023.

[TEPaul]

"What I think is being overlooked is how swing speeds got to be 120 MPH and more."

Patrick:

How it got there? That's simple--some players are capable of swinging harder--that's how it got to 120 and above. And it really doesn't matter if a guy like Love had an old persimmon D-3 43" Tony Penna in his hands or a new Titleist 976k.There's not too much doubt in my mind that Love's swing speed around the time he played the Walker Cup was probably close to 5mph higher than it is right now. Some even said players like he and Daly may have been around 130 with that old equipment--maybe even Nicklaus once upon a time.

Over the long haul though even for a really strong player I think swing-weight (that very mysterious factor of physical ability combined with physics to produce consistent results!!) is very key. Nicklaus was always pretty adamant about using a lower swing-weight in his drivers--around D-3. He felt that anything above that and certainly a club up to around D-8 that some of the long hitters used just tired him out over the long haul! And Jack, in his prime, from feet to head was definitely one of the strongest of them all!

[john_stiles]

TEPaul,

Don't get hung up on the swing speed.  Don't get hung up on the 'test'.

My point in the original post was that if you just monitor and you are just hoping distance is not improved by some combination of the ball, club, swing, and player's abilities,  then I hope you are right.

If we are at the limit of technology, then that is fine also and I agree there is no problem.

If players swing speeds increase due to their ability, then just increase the ODS.   If player swing 'norm' speeds increase (past 120 mph), then the ODS will need to be adjusted. Simple.  Again that is a not a problem.  The USGA does how to do that. Everything manufactured up to that point will be conforming.

But.....why does anyone believe that swing speeds,  or the PGA norm as the USGA refers to it,  will not increase past 120 mph ?  

As previously posted, why not have a plan to arbitrarily increase swing speed and keep the ODS the same ?  (ie roll the ball back).

If you just monitor, as the USGA has it will do in the case of the ODS, then you are just standing still waiting for someone to pass you by.

Some combination of factors (someone else assign the percentages to ball, club, swing speed, ability, etc.)  has caused problems in the past 5 to 10 years.

I just do not think we are at the limit of the ball ,  the clubhead, the swing, etc.  To just have a plan to monitor is not a good idea.  See previous discussion about abilities (supposed abilities) to capture better performance through non-linear material behavior.

It does appear that clubhead size and club length might soon be limited which is fine by me.

A better plan would be to reel the ball in or have a plan to reel the ball in, either using swing speed or just rolling back the ODS.  Everyone is just taking the somewhat absurd position that we are, once more, at the limit and we can
just  "MONITOR".

[A.G._Crockett]

John Stiles
There is every reason to believe that swing speeds will not continue to increase.  Take as a comparison, the speed at which human beings can throw a baseball with any accuracy at all.  That speed has topped out in the 90's, and isn't changing.  The same thing is true, by and large, in track and field.  The increments of change have become very small.  The same laws of physics apply to the golf swing as to other movements, and videotape and biomechanical studies have been used already to help the top pros max out.

I don't think the position that we are at the limits has been taken before.  I think that there is good reason to think that we may be approaching those limits now,and that "monitoring" WILL work!

Finally, the idea that the ball can be "rolled back" is just not practical.  The balls that everyone is concerned about are still not the longest on the market, and well within the standards, as has been explained many times.  The quickest way for the USGA to achieve irrelevance and the game to descend in chaos is to tell 99.99% of the golf world that they must use golf balls which don't go as far!  (Not to mention crippling lawsuits by the manufacturers of suddenly non-complying golf balls!)  Besides, I'll go to my grave believing that the real difference in the ProV, et al, is NOT the distance.  Its how STRAIGHT the ball is when killed off the tee, allowing the pros to max out swing speed.  Assume for a moment that's the case;  how do you propose to roll back to a more "crooked" ball?

[john_stiles]

AJ,

Swing speeds (some swing speeds, a few) are above 120 mph right now.  These are not the long drive champs, but 'players' as I understand.  When others learn the technique or teachers can teach the technique or enough kids pick up a driver and swing (as the USGA hopes and is trying to accomplish),  then PGA norm swing speeds are likely to go up.  There is some 'cushion' between PGA norm and test swing speed.

What if the 'future set' of professionals can learn how to swing harder and control the ball ?  

Optimizing spin rates by modifying shell and core materials and shell and core dimensions is ... part of the ball, part of technology improving ball flight, and the game.  There is a recent quote (unscientific as such) from Kenny Perry to the effect of golfball improvements.

You are right that straight is part of the game.  Isn't that a ball improvement,  getting the spin rate tuned in ?  Doesn't the USGA set a spin rate to get the ball to go 'further'.  Are spin rate improvements maxed out,  in combination with swing speeds,  at the same point in time ?

I have some golf balls in my garage that could again be manufactured for everyone and all......or, a redo as a tournament ball.  However, when remanufactured, the spin rate might not be right for some players game and may not go as far.

Maybe you are right.... the toothpaste is out and there is no way to go back.  

But,  I think there is more to squeezed out of the clubhead, the golfball, the shaft, and players' ability, more than just a little bit and enough to force longer, more expensive courses and more rounds of renovations.

The experts say NO. Distance is now fixed.

The golf ball can be one way to offset distance. Limiting the clubhead size, COR, or length of the shaft will not cripple the game. Limiting grooves did not cripple the game  (it cost a lot for some, had to grandfather some clubs, etc.)

Another way is to set new test standards,  not above the swing speed of a few professionals, and monitor.  It just doesn't seem like a long term plan to me.

So, I think there should be some plans.  Plans would have to be to roll the ball back at some point.  Do not roll it back now but be prepared to do it.

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