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Jim Tang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is that the way to finish a major?
« Reply #50 on: August 11, 2014, 09:40:00 AM »
I thought Rory was somewhat disrespectful of both Phil and Ricky, who were still very much in the tournament while standing on 18.  They allowed Rory to tee off on 18 so that he then had the option to finish the hole or not.  Fine.  But Rory then should have given both Phil and Ricky plenty of room and allowed them to finish 18.  He did not, walking down the fairway and eventually playing his second shot.

The scene was very chaotic and at the very least it had to make both Phil and Ricky somewhat uncomfortable, which might have affect their play at the last.

Bruce Wellmon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is that the way to finish a major?
« Reply #51 on: August 11, 2014, 09:57:15 AM »
If Phil and Rickie decided not to finish.... Could Rory have decided to finish out of turn?

That is a great question. (Once they let one of the last 2 players tee off).
Clearly they did the PGA and/or Rory a favor by letting the last group tee off. To me, IMO, that shows Phil and Rickie like Rory and were willing to "help" him so they all wouldn't have to come back today or Tuesday. I thought, at one point, they were going to join groups which would have been something. If the player in the last group was someone they didn't like, IMO, they say nope. They could have stalled and said "I can't see" on the green to make the last group play in greater darkness or come back today. But, then they have to come back and putt. If they say "I can't see to putt," can the last group still finish? 

Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is that the way to finish a major?
« Reply #52 on: August 11, 2014, 10:01:57 AM »
My understanding is that once you have teed off then you have the option of playing out if you so desire if play is called due to darkness.  I don't know that it matters whether the group(s) ahead finishes or not.

Tim Pitner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is that the way to finish a major?
« Reply #53 on: August 11, 2014, 10:47:55 AM »
No, it is not.

I can understand Rory, the PGA and CBS wanting to finish on Sunday, but Mickelson and Fowler were still in with a chance to tie McIlroy or even come out on top if they had made eagle, put some pressure on McIlroy and forced a mistake.  It changed the whole dynamic of the finish, which is a shame for a major championship.  FYI, I was rooting for McIlroy and don't really care for Mickelson.  Although he took the high road in his remarks, you could tell Mickelson was livid with how it went down and I can understand why.  Mickelson and Fowler were essentially hustled off the course to make way for McIlroy's coronation.

Bill Seitz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is that the way to finish a major?
« Reply #54 on: August 11, 2014, 11:07:52 AM »
They could have saved a lot of time by reducing the field and telling all the guys that don't hit the ball 320 yards to just go home, since they didn't really have a chance anyway. 

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is that the way to finish a major?
« Reply #55 on: August 11, 2014, 11:15:00 AM »
Oh how I wish Tiger had been in the next to last group.

Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Keith Grande

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is that the way to finish a major?
« Reply #56 on: August 11, 2014, 11:15:06 AM »
Bill,

I thought of you while watching the Nance interview with Kerry Haig.  I believe they mentioned trying to "fit in" all the golfers by reducing the start times between the groups by a few minutes.  I recall you mentioning intervals as one of the most important regulators of flow on the course.

Did this lead to congested play, and increased time to complete the round?  

Were the other factors such as rulings on "casual water" in the fairways a contributing factor?  

I can't understand almost 5 hours for twosomes to play a round.

Brent Hutto

Re: Is that the way to finish a major?
« Reply #57 on: August 11, 2014, 11:19:49 AM »
I can't understand almost 5 hours for twosomes to play a round.

Rory actually teed off at 4:26pm. What time was it when they finished, wasn't it give or take about 8:50pm? That's four hours, twenty-five minutes. Slow but within about 15 minutes of typical last-group finishing times in Tour events.

Jim_Coleman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is that the way to finish a major?
« Reply #58 on: August 11, 2014, 11:22:03 AM »
    It seems to me there's a lot of hand wringing here over nothing.  Under Rule 6-3b, the Committee had the authority to have the last 2 groups play in together.  Also, the players no NOT have the option, on their own, to stop play due to darkness.  Only the Committee can declare it too dark.  Once that happens, the player can complete the hole he is playing (Rule 6-8b).  To my knowledge, the Committee did not declare it to be too dark.
    As for who was advantage by the way it was done, clearly Phil and Rickey were advantaged.  Standing in the fairway on the easiest hole on the course, trailing by 2, they both knew they needed eagle to have any chance.  By seeing Rory's tee shot before playing their second shots, they had valuable information they otherwise would not have had.  If Rory had hit it in the water, eagle may not have been a necessity.  Once Rory's ball is in play, eagle is the only option - exactly what they would have believed if Rory had never hit.  Under Normal circumstances, Rory would know exactly what he needed to do before playing his second shot, as an eagle either would or would not have been made.  By playing his second shot before Phil and Rickey finished, he was deprived of valuable information.

Keith Grande

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is that the way to finish a major?
« Reply #59 on: August 11, 2014, 11:28:26 AM »
I can't understand almost 5 hours for twosomes to play a round.

Rory actually teed off at 4:26pm. What time was it when they finished, wasn't it give or take about 8:50pm? That's four hours, twenty-five minutes. Slow but within about 15 minutes of typical last-group finishing times in Tour events.

Yeah, if you count ram-rodding the final groups round in by "playing through".  They would have been close to 5 hours at the pace they were playing at before the last few holes.

Bill_Yates

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is that the way to finish a major?
« Reply #60 on: August 11, 2014, 11:37:15 AM »
Keith,
I believe that those factors all have an impact on the pace and flow of play, particularly the starting interval.  While well intentioned as a remedy for getting finished sooner, the seemingly slight  adjustment shows how sensitive the balance is between having a course that flows smoothly and one on which backups occur.  Of course, there will always be rulings and when you have them on a smooth flowing course they have minimum impact on only a couple of groups.
Bill Yates
www.pacemanager.com 
"When you manage the pace of play, you manage the quality of golf."

Rob Curtiss

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is that the way to finish a major?
« Reply #61 on: August 11, 2014, 11:44:30 AM »
The end was rather unorganized but while letting Rory tee off- Phil and Rickie knew exactly what they needed to do.
Whether they would have finished the hole -while Rory waited- or they all finished together - or they did it the way it actually happened - they knew what they had to do once they let him tee off-

With Rory in play- bad lie or otherwise- they knew what they had to do-

I would assume with them both being professionals- the fact that Rory was with them - pressing them or speeding them up - should not have bothered them-

The way Rory played from hole 10 on- no one was going to beat that kid-

Couldnt Rory have called - too dark - before hitting his tee shot and played the 18th the next day all by himself under perfect condtions

Dave McCollum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is that the way to finish a major?
« Reply #62 on: August 11, 2014, 12:12:15 PM »
Loved the finish.  They had to pick up the pace to finish.  They had to play golf, hit the shots, not lollygag around talking to their caddies or rules officials.  They got it done.  Best guy won.  What’s not to like about that?  I wish more TV golf was that exciting.  The only problem was they were put in that situation by the slow pokes  up ahead that couldn’t play a round--in twosomes!-- in less than 4:35 or whatever.     


Jeff Taylor

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is that the way to finish a major?
« Reply #63 on: August 11, 2014, 01:35:47 PM »
Stupid question. Temporary lighting is an impossibility?

Andrew Buck

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is that the way to finish a major?
« Reply #64 on: August 11, 2014, 03:29:01 PM »
Do you think they would have finished the same way if there was a 3 way tie for first heading into the last hole and playoff was probable? 

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is that the way to finish a major?
« Reply #65 on: August 11, 2014, 03:32:33 PM »
Do you think they would have finished the same way if there was a 3 way tie for first heading into the last hole and playoff was probable? 

I don't see how being tied heading into the last hole makes a playoff probable.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jeff Shelman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is that the way to finish a major?
« Reply #66 on: August 11, 2014, 03:48:34 PM »
I don't know how much you can criticize Rory for pace of play.

There were a number of holes on the back nine where they waited for a good bit of time for Phil and Fowler.

I think a split-tee start would have helped. But once that didn't happen, I think all parties were in a tough spot.

The number of people who would have had to come back for a Monday finish is a big number. Seems like there would have been quite a bit of cost for the PGA to not finish.

As far as Rory waiting to hit his second shot, I don't buy that. He was laying up. If you are hitting a layup shot, you shouldn't have to wait for the group ahead to clear the green on a par 5.

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is that the way to finish a major?
« Reply #67 on: August 11, 2014, 03:59:19 PM »
   It seems to me there's a lot of hand wringing here over nothing.  Under Rule 6-3b, the Committee had the authority to have the last 2 groups play in together.  Also, the players no NOT have the option, on their own, to stop play due to darkness.  Only the Committee can declare it too dark.  Once that happens, the player can complete the hole he is playing (Rule 6-8b).  To my knowledge, the Committee did not declare it to be too dark.
    As for who was advantage by the way it was done, clearly Phil and Rickey were advantaged.  Standing in the fairway on the easiest hole on the course, trailing by 2, they both knew they needed eagle to have any chance.  By seeing Rory's tee shot before playing their second shots, they had valuable information they otherwise would not have had.  If Rory had hit it in the water, eagle may not have been a necessity.  Once Rory's ball is in play, eagle is the only option - exactly what they would have believed if Rory had never hit.  Under Normal circumstances, Rory would know exactly what he needed to do before playing his second shot, as an eagle either would or would not have been made.  By playing his second shot before Phil and Rickey finished, he was deprived of valuable information.

Jim nailed it.
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is that the way to finish a major?
« Reply #68 on: August 11, 2014, 04:09:51 PM »
+1 I agree with Jim Coleman too.

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Is that the way to finish a major?
« Reply #69 on: August 11, 2014, 04:13:09 PM »
Do you think they would have finished the same way if there was a 3 way tie for first heading into the last hole and playoff was probable? 

I don't see how being tied heading into the last hole makes a playoff probable.


I hope we get a chance to gamble together someday.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is that the way to finish a major?
« Reply #70 on: August 11, 2014, 04:30:28 PM »
Do you think they would have finished the same way if there was a 3 way tie for first heading into the last hole and playoff was probable? 

I don't see how being tied heading into the last hole makes a playoff probable.


I hope we get a chance to gamble together someday.

Hole 18 was a half par hole in the true sense of the word. It averaged 4.5 for the tournament.
Now if they can actually write down 4.5 on the card, your gambling proposal might have some meaning.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Is that the way to finish a major?
« Reply #71 on: August 11, 2014, 04:40:56 PM »
If you don't think a playoff would have been more probable with a three-way tie on the 18th tee than it was with one guy holding a two-stroke lead, I will continue to hope we can gamble together someday.

What's your game?
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Tim Pitner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is that the way to finish a major?
« Reply #72 on: August 11, 2014, 04:57:15 PM »
   It seems to me there's a lot of hand wringing here over nothing.  Under Rule 6-3b, the Committee had the authority to have the last 2 groups play in together.  Also, the players no NOT have the option, on their own, to stop play due to darkness.  Only the Committee can declare it too dark.  Once that happens, the player can complete the hole he is playing (Rule 6-8b).  To my knowledge, the Committee did not declare it to be too dark.
    As for who was advantage by the way it was done, clearly Phil and Rickey were advantaged.  Standing in the fairway on the easiest hole on the course, trailing by 2, they both knew they needed eagle to have any chance.  By seeing Rory's tee shot before playing their second shots, they had valuable information they otherwise would not have had.  If Rory had hit it in the water, eagle may not have been a necessity.  Once Rory's ball is in play, eagle is the only option - exactly what they would have believed if Rory had never hit.  Under Normal circumstances, Rory would know exactly what he needed to do before playing his second shot, as an eagle either would or would not have been made.  By playing his second shot before Phil and Rickey finished, he was deprived of valuable information.

Jim nailed it.

I respectfully disagree.  Jim says Phil and Rickie were provided valuable information when they learned Rory's drive was dry and they therefore needed eagle.  He also says they would have known they needed eagle regardless so it turns out that information wasn't very valuable.  If Phil or Rickie had made eagle before Rory played his second, Rory might have attempted a riskier shot in an effort to make birdie and win outright.  Phil and Rickie were deprived of an opportunity to apply pressure to Rory and, considering they were chasing a leader playing behind them on an easy par 5 finisher, that was their only chance to force a mistake and get in a playoff.  Of course, the result may well have been the same, but the whole dynamic of the finish was changed.

Andrew Buck

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is that the way to finish a major?
« Reply #73 on: August 11, 2014, 04:59:01 PM »
Do you think they would have finished the same way if there was a 3 way tie for first heading into the last hole and playoff was probable?  

I don't see how being tied heading into the last hole makes a playoff probable.


Math says if 3 guys are tied heading into the 18th at Valhalla on Sunday (using Sunday's scoring averages), 70% of the time there would be a two way or 3 way playoff.  I consider that probable.   To be precise 27% of the time there would be a 3-way playoff, and 43% of the time there would be a 2 way playoff, with an outright winner 30% of the time.  

Furthermore, had Rickie not needed eagle, and had Rory needed birdie, I suspect you'd have a 3 way tie last night as well.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2014, 05:05:44 PM by Andrew Buck »

Pete_Pittock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is that the way to finish a major?
« Reply #74 on: August 11, 2014, 05:01:22 PM »
IMO, the only legitimate reason to allow the final group to start the 18th hole before the fairway cleared was the Committee feeling that they would probably have to suspend play because of darkness. By doing so the players have the choice to complete the hole or continue the next day. Why they did not suspend is another story. There is a lot of pressure, from a variety of directions, on the offiicials at the end of a tournament when darkness or dangerous weather looms.

A player has the right to ask the Committee to suspend play for darkness if he feels he cannot properly prepare for a shot, but it is up to the Committee to decide.

One reason for the pace of play was the myriad casual water relief situations. Those take time.

 

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