[Derek_Duncan]

Can anyone give a brief description of how the old Plantation and Retreat Courses looked and played prior to Rees Jones's 1998 combination? The course seems "built up" now with a good deal of fairway undulation and minor mounding around the greens. I know two lakes were added--was the fill used as topsoil and then shaped to achieve undulation or was this ground movement there prior?

Also, which current nine was the Retreat and which was the Plantation? Any information would be helpful. Thanks,
Derek

[paul cowley]

...the nine to your left as you enter the property was 'retreat' ,to your right was 'plantation'.

[John_Conley]

Hey Derek:

Did you ever see a course called Rainbow Springs during your time in Florida?  West of Ocala and pretty close to El Diablo.  I've heard a few good things about unknown courses over there like Twisted Oak and Rainbow, but haven't seen them.  I've only played El D, Golden Ocala, the Dunes, and the WW courses as well as Black Diamond.  Is anything else worth the drive or worth seeing if up there?

[BCrosby]

Derek -

I played the old Plantation/Retreat courses many times. The first time was about 1963. The last was a coule of years before the Rees redo.

First, Seaside (Travis) was always considered the best nine. Normally you played it with what was called Marshside (Lee). Then you played Plantation and Retreat together. Perhaps they flipped those from time to time, but that seemed to be the usual 18 hole set up. Fazio has redone Seaside and Marshside.

By the time I played Retreat and Plantation as a kid in the60's both had already undergone major revisions. Done by RTJ, I think, in the 50's. You might check in C&W.

Retreat was my favorite of the two. It retained an older, less manufactured feel. No. 2 was a wonderful long par 3 with water on the right. No. 3 was a funky short par four that doglegged left. No. 9 was a ball buster par four that usually played into the wind.

Even as a kid, I never thought Plantation was a very good course.  

Since there was very little of Travis or Allison (?) left by the time I played them, I am not especially outraged by the massive changes brought by Rees/Fazio. Even after the millions spent on the redos, I don't think they ended up with better courses. Thank goodness it wasn't my money. But the bottom line is that the holes they changed had no special interest to begin with, historical or otherwise.  

The Sea Island courses are another example of the typical evolution of Golden Age courses. It is remarkable how often this pattern repeated itself:

1. Golden Age course is built in the 1920's.

2. In the 1950's the club/resort determines the design is too hard for the average golfer. RTJ or Dick Wilson is brought in to defang the course and make it more maintenance friendly. They remove lots of bunkers, flatten green contours and bring more water into play.

3. By the late 90's, the course is looking out-dated so an archie is brought in to "return the course to its Golden Age roots". Which means, quite literally, nothing and anything.

At Retreat/Plantation Rees did his Rees thing. I see no sign that he gave even a nod to the Golden Age origins of the courses. But, again, whatever had once been there was long gone by the time Rees arrived.

Fun courses, but there is nothing memorable about them. Not worth a special trip.

On the other hand, I can't decide whether The Lodge is well done or merely ostentatious. Unlike the golf courses, the Lodge IS worth a special trip.

There are some drawings by Allison (? I am not sure because it was late and I had been drinking steadily that day since lunch) hanging in one of the dining rooms and a routing of the original Retreat outside the bar that are worth a look.

Bob  

   

[Derek_Duncan]

Bob,

Thanks for your response. I think you've described well what happened at Sea Island. I would tend to agree with your assessments of The Plantation Course as it stands now. It seems there's several feet of new dirt underfoot--I'm thinking the courses used to play basically flat with slightly elevated greens (a basic 1950/60's design).

Interesting that, due to changes, the younger course, Wilson's Retreat, seemed older and less manufactured to you than the older Plantation nine. Someone must have really done a number on the latter.

I thought Seaside turned out much more interesting, and of course it's blessed with a wonderful setting. But I sure would have liked to have seen the course prior to the Fazio constuction, and really would like to know what it looked like in 1927. My guess is there weren't any "dunes" lining the fairways.

John,

I've never played Rainbow Springs or Twisted Oaks. The only other course out that way that I've played and would recommend is Royal Oaks, a short but sporty and solid Terry LaGree design. Not worth a special trip but a nice place to stop on the way to El Diablo. I've also read that Rees is rennovating Golden Hills--maybe that's old news but it would be big news around Ocala.

[BCrosby]

Derek -

Yes, they put a lot of dirt on Plantation. It was the flattest of the nines at SI. My guess is that someone bulldozed out the old Allison features in the 50's and that was the course I played as a kid.

Was Retreat originally by Dick Wilson? I thought it was a contemporary of Plantation and Seaside. Interesting. All the more reason to check out the drawings in the Lodge bar and dining room. And more evidence that Dick Wilson is under appreciated today.

I like Fazio's changes to the Marsh side, though it would not have been hard to improve on the old Joe Lee there.

But I am the only person I know that does not like what Fazio did to Seaside. It is the most exposed of the nines, but his green complexes make it much harder to play under the wind.

No. 7 on Seaside was my favorite of the 36 holes at Sea Island. A semi cape. It's gone now. Fazio removed the features that made it an interesting hole.

It's been a couple of years since the SI renovations and the response here in Atlanta to the new courses has been very muted. No excitment whatsoever. Notwithstanding the millions of dollars they spent on "improvements". There is a sense that golf in SI is grossly over-priced. Which I think is pretty accurate.

Bob  

[Derek_Duncan]

Bob,

The information I have is that Travis did the Plantatin nine in 1927, then he died. Colt & Alison were hired to do the second nine (Seaside) two years later and in the process modified much of Travis's work on Plantation to better match their own. Wilson built Retreat in 1959 and Lee did Marshside in 1973.

I agree with you about the green complexes at Seaside--they're bold, which I admire, but could be brutal in a stern wind--especially #4, #10, #13.

Did the green on #16 (formerly #7) used to be closer to the hazard and more exposed to make it more a true "Cape" hole? It's still a Cape-style drive (although the best position is not a realistic carry for most players) but the green is placed well back of the hazard. The hole does not set up attractively to my eye. I'd like to know more about the old version if you care to elaborate.

Thanks for your comments.

[BCrosby]

Derek -

The old seventh was only slightly closer to the water. But it had a large ridge on the right edge of the green, a bunker front right and a run-off slope to the left. The premium was on a drive that took the risk of hugging the creek (and cutting off as much as you dared) and approaching the green from the left. A wonderfully subtle and hard hole. My recollection of the new Fazio green is that those features have been neutralized and that approaches from the right/middle of the fairway, the bail-out area, are no longer disadvantaged.

Bob

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