[Jon Wiggett]

What's the best course in Scotland to still operate an honesty box?

Of those that I have played probably Wick though I would imagine Askernish operates one in the winter as well.

[Ryan Coles]

My Club doesn't operate tee booking outside of competitions.

In fact members are the only people who can't book a time, which is a nonsense when you think about it.

How many rounds at my Club last year? No idea.

We charge weekend rates, but my eyes tell me that Fridays are busier than Sundays. What are the facts? No idea.

What time did that slow four ball tee off? No idea.

From a management perspective, it has to be preferable, although as has been alluded to on here before, the temptation becomes to fill the slots at silly prices.

To introduce tee booking would cause world war 3 at my Club. Yet the same 40 players turn up on a Saturday to play at 12.30 and wait every week, albeit we do have a two tee start. To keep repeating this and expecting a different outcome is indeed an example of insanity. It is just fear of the unknown and there is a clear member club to proprietary club split on who operates a system, yet most members clubs in my area are all busy these days.
 
I've not heard of any Clubs that went down the tee booking route who ended up reverting back.

[Jon Wiggett]

Ryan,

I guess most clubs investing in tee times do not reverse their decision and as I have said before they are a good idea for many clubs. What I objected to was the statement that any club that did not use one was stupid and that from someone who clearly should know better.

I guess one reason members might be hesitant about is if you book a tee time and then cry off what are the consequences. Forcing members to go out in rain to avoid being penalised because they have booked a tee is not very popular. As for knowing when the slow 4ball teed off the pro would be able to remember as he would be able to put approximate numbers on players on any afternoon.

But even if you know Fridays are busier with an exact number what difference is that going to make. Are you going to put the greenfee up on a Friday?

Does your tee time system tell you how many of the starts are members only doing a few holes? And have you ever thought the 40 players that turn up Saturday to play at 12.30 and wait every week do that because they enjoy the banter that goes along with waiting to tee off.

A membership is often strange beast to have to deal with and though there are certain aspects that I miss there are many that I do not.

Jon

[Adrian_Stiff]

Ryan,

I guess most clubs investing in tee times do not reverse their decision and as I have said before they are a good idea for many clubs. What I objected to was the statement that any club that did not use one was stupid and that from someone who clearly should know better.

I guess one reason members might be hesitant about is if you book a tee time and then cry off what are the consequences. Forcing members to go out in rain to avoid being penalised because they have booked a tee is not very popular. As for knowing when the slow 4ball teed off the pro would be able to remember as he would be able to put approximate numbers on players on any afternoon.

But even if you know Fridays are busier with an exact number what difference is that going to make. Are you going to put the greenfee up on a Friday?

Does your tee time system tell you how many of the starts are members only doing a few holes? And have you ever thought the 40 players that turn up Saturday to play at 12.30 and wait every week do that because they enjoy the banter that goes along with waiting to tee off.

A membership is often strange beast to have to deal with and though there are certain aspects that I miss there are many that I do not.

Jon

I still maintain the word STUPID. Its dark ages stuff in line with knee length socks, mobile phone bans and frosty welcomes, unless the club is happy to have less business. As soon as you operate an online system you get more visitors automatically booking, you get members looking at the tee sheet, your buisness is open to accept 24 hours a day and its about £1000 per year. The stats you can punch out and the other things I mention are worth a lot. Obviously honesty box courses dont need them, you are just being a pedantic Jon which is typical of you.

[Ryan Coles]

Ryan,

I guess most clubs investing in tee times do not reverse their decision and as I have said before they are a good idea for many clubs. What I objected to was the statement that any club that did not use one was stupid and that from someone who clearly should know better.

I guess one reason members might be hesitant about is if you book a tee time and then cry off what are the consequences. Forcing members to go out in rain to avoid being penalised because they have booked a tee is not very popular. As for knowing when the slow 4ball teed off the pro would be able to remember as he would be able to put approximate numbers on players on any afternoon.

But even if you know Fridays are busier with an exact number what difference is that going to make. Are you going to put the greenfee up on a Friday?

Does your tee time system tell you how many of the starts are members only doing a few holes? And have you ever thought the 40 players that turn up Saturday to play at 12.30 and wait every week do that because they enjoy the banter that goes along with waiting to tee off.

A membership is often strange beast to have to deal with and though there are certain aspects that I miss there are many that I do not.

Jon

Firstly on the question of price, yes. I want to encourage visitors at a time that least inconveniences members. A big driver on that is price. If Friday is busier than Sunday, Friday should be more expensive for a green fee payer. The busiest time should be the most expensive time.

Do they enjoy waiting? if they do, they hide it well. Often a tale of a 4.5 hour round involves only 3 hours 50 mins on the golf course. We never have more than one member of staff in the shop and this changes frequently as they switch and swap depending on who's giving lessons. They might remember today, ask them about it next week and its guess work or manual record keeping.

There are also some important tax implications for knowing the exact split between member and non member rounds.

[Sean_A]

Adrian

Malum consilium quod mutari non potest  . 

Ciao

[Paul Gray]

Matthew,

5 minutes to look for a lost ball, as per the rules. Always call players behind through BEFORE having your search.

Adrian,

I fear you're a smart guy that's been stuck in the proprietary business for too long and now believes his own hype. You tried to turn the argument to suggest your offering a tee times service was a matter of providing your customers with a first rate service but you now seem to have conceded that it's about getting more cattle through the gates. I don't begrudge your wanting to do so; you have a business to run and you need the numbers but please at least be honest about your thinking. Although, again, I'm not sure that you haven't fallen pray to the standard lines you pedal to your punters.

"...unless the club is happy to have less business." Yep, we have a busy enough course with all the high paying society days we run and don't need to be inconvenienced by finding that the tee is booked with visitors. Visitors are very welcome but they turn up and join the non-existent queue with everyone else. We also have a fishing lake and some holiday accommodation so, frankly, we just don't need to go drumming up trade in the way you do. We don't want a busier course because we just don't need a busier course. You however, driven by profit, do.

I'll ask you again, do you really think it's stupid to not introduce an online tee time facility for the members at Swinley Forest?

[Ryan Coles]

It speaks volumes that the two examples cited are extremes at both ends of the spectrum. Honesty boxes and Swinley Forest.

I can find you rare exceptions to almost every rule.

[Paul Gray]

Ryan,

Extremes indeed, but then Adrian said, without exception, that it was stupid to not have a tee times system.

My argument throughout, which I'll repeat for the third time, is simply 'horses for courses.' And without wishing to speak for Jon, I'm pretty sure that's all he's saying too.

[Ryan Coles]

Fair enough Paul but do you think terms like "cattle through the gates" is somewhat disparaging and in many ways symbolic of golfers prejudices against tee booking systems?

Horses for courses indeed, but I feel many suburban middling Clubs have delusions of grandeur and adopt a similar attitude that simply isn't backed up by their balance sheet.

It is also a myth that only proprietary clubs should be interested in profit. A business that trades at a loss continually will eventually either meet trouble or need bailing out.

[Paul Gray]

Ryan,

Fair enough about the cattle comment. My prejudice is based more on the proprietary club I worked at than anything to do with Adrian.

But remember, making a profit and seeking more profit is a very different scenario from planning to break even and not pushing beyond that point.

[Carl Johnson]

Last time I played at Glen Mills, a daily fee outside Philly, the interval was 15 min.

[Adrian_Stiff]

The points I am making have nothing to do with proprietary v members clubs and nothing to do with conveyor belt golf. A golf course can be clogged up with just six groups going off in succession early in the morning, if the first or second group have slo players.

Tee times systems are essential tools of running a golf club, there is a lot of good stuff in the background. Yes you don't need them for courses that get 3 players a day in the highlands and there may be other courses where virtually no one plays. Swinley has changed a lot recently, you can now book society days there, going back you could not, that actually shows to me 'times they are a changing' and they will change further.

Younger people and time is an important factor, the younger people want to know they are playing at a certain time and plan around that. I have yet to find anyone that takes enjoyment in queuing

You are still missing the point Paul. If your course is quiet you can still do the things you want to do and cater for the needs of the ones that pitch up. You can have a tee times system that cater for the ones that want a known time. Its win win win.

More proprietary clubs have them v the members clubs for one reason. Proprietary golf clubs are often run by professional people not a collection of pickleheads skilled in 6 or 7 different skills rarely with any golf experience that continually waste the clubs money. But it will change as more clubs see the benifits and ultimately get a golf manager and leave it to him.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Adrian,

I fear you're a smart guy that's been stuck in the proprietary business for too long and now believes his own hype. You tried to turn the argument to suggest your offering a tee times service was a matter of providing your customers with a first rate service but you now seem to have conceded that it's about getting more cattle through the gates. I don't begrudge your wanting to do so; you have a business to run and you need the numbers but please at least be honest about your thinking. Although, again, I'm not sure that you haven't fallen pray to the standard lines you pedal to your punters.

"...unless the club is happy to have less business." Yep, we have a busy enough course with all the high paying society days we run and don't need to be inconvenienced by finding that the tee is booked with visitors. Visitors are very welcome but they turn up and join the non-existent queue with everyone else. We also have a fishing lake and some holiday accommodation so, frankly, we just don't need to go drumming up trade in the way you do. We don't want a busier course because we just don't need a busier course. You however, driven by profit, do.

I'll ask you again, do you really think it's stupid to not introduce an online tee time facility for the members at Swinley Forest?
[/quote]Paul - I don't think I have changed my position from the start of the discussion. I maintain that it offers a better service as you can look at a tee sheet (staff or members) and see the gaps so in that respect it can offer better distribution of the golfers on the course. If clubs want more business and I would think 90% of them do then the online booking is very usefull. In the background of the tee times system is automated emails, booking forms, membership data and a variety of reports that you can look at to study statistics. Depends if you are interested in statistics but I was taught that people that believe statistics are generally the winners and the people that don't believe them are the losers. With the stats that this throws up  there are certainly some eye openers. Most golf clubs dont know their PPR break even, and even sale under their PPR.
It is great that Hayling has a fishing lake. 90% of golf clubs are needy of more money. Me personally I am not in the slightest interested in money for myself only to have more to spend on the courses which I suspect is most members clubs position. I agree I believe my own hype, but I believe in facts and not fiction and have the ability to understand that sometimes my opinion is a minority one and therefore let statistics over-ride.

[Jon Wiggett]

Ryan,

I understand the busy time thing but what if the reason for this is actually more greenfee players not members. The reason most clubs charge more on weekends is because these are more popular with members usually. Of course the tee time system will/should tell you the break down between various groups but it is important that such info is used wisely. I also wonder how happy many members would be about the club being able to track all their movements over the years at the golf club?

Adrian,

I did think that you might be a little more open to other situations than your own. But your statement 'I still maintain the word STUPID. Its dark ages stuff in line with knee length socks, mobile phone bans and frosty welcomes' is quite disappointing. I can assure you that at my club I am not in the dark ages, nor do any of our golfers wear knee length socks, we do not have a mobile phone ban and I have never had any complaints about frosty welcomes. I am not sure if I am being pedantic or not about objecting to your description of my course and hence me however at least I am open minded and able to accept other views as sensible.

Jon

[Paul Gray]

Adrian,

I'm all but done here as I'm not, and I repeat, I'm not fundamentally disagreeing with you that booking systems CAN be an advantage. Hell, I've worked on one, run the stats, had the numerous polite disagreements with the never ending flow of players that insist that they booked a different time and the system has somehow, as if by magic, rescheduled it for them! Sometimes, only sometimes, they're good enough to apologise when they go home, check their emails and realise the mistake was all theirs.

A friend and me have booked a tee time at Camberley Heath tomorrow, an old Colt course which is clearly heading in the right direction and getting the books back to where they need to be. They need the booking system and good on them. But, and I've already used Swinley as an extreme example but there are numerous clubs in the area which I could cite, many of the other Surrey clubs simply have no need for a booking system and THEIR PAYING CUSTOMERS prefer it that way.

[Tommy Williamsen]

A course that allows outside play needs tee times.  A small membership club that only allows member play may not.  Musgrove Mill has tee times but in the 18 years I have been a member I have made only a handful of tee times.  If the first tee is busy I will have someone drive me out to a hole that is open.  Works fine.

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