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Peter Pallotta

Re: I'm slow on the uptake re Pinehurst
« Reply #25 on: June 10, 2014, 10:29:30 AM »
Thanks, gents.

I wasn't making a value judgement as much as an observation (especially since over the years I've come to believe that -- as Pete Dye suggests about No. 2 -- Mr. Ross intended some of his designs to play really hard, as Pinehurst will this week).

I was just noting the rather obvious fact, in the context of our modern day designers creating courses with a classic/golden age feel, that at least at No. 2 the much prized width that was restored (and the strategies/angles that come with it) goes hand in hand with unprecedented length.  

A question (as I really don't know the answer): while many of C&C's own courses have the width and interesting greens of this Ross restoration, do any of them play as long as 7500 yards-Par 70?

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: I'm slow on the uptake re Pinehurst
« Reply #26 on: June 10, 2014, 10:30:41 AM »
Coore and Crenshaw are almost going through the course hole by hole, and they said, "This is Ross' course NOT ours.." Agreed for the most part, but what about the extra 1000 (give or take) yards??? ;D

Trick Question-  So what percentage of the $410 (?) green fee is from the extra 1000 yards?

And further, do I get a discount if I promise only to use 5,900 yards of the original course?

Knowing the Pinehurst Resort, they'll probably offer you a discount to get you to book and then charge it all back to you with administrative fees, resort fees, arbor fund fees, Donald Ross Memorial Scholarship fees, and free breakfast fees. They take the CCFAD concept to a new level, right down to the assessments.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Peter Pallotta

Re: I'm slow on the uptake re Pinehurst
« Reply #27 on: June 10, 2014, 10:37:22 AM »
J - if i ever get down there, I think I'll have to be satisfied with Mid Pines and Pine Needles instead.

Besides the cost, and as Scott suggested, there are a heck of a lot of long par 4s and par 3s there, and they will still be (relatively) long no matter what set of tees I play.

Folks mention fast and firm conditions, and I accept their word for it. But do you ever find that when you get to a course noted for fast and firm fairways, you just happen -- more often than not -- to play it on a day when its slow and soggy?

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I'm slow on the uptake re Pinehurst
« Reply #28 on: June 10, 2014, 10:42:39 AM »
I have played #2 twice (1982 and 2013) and know that each successive playing would reveal more brilliance.

It has been stated in prior threads, but who's counting? I profess that p2 is the leader in this category: great course that least grabs your attention after first playing.

When paying that $400 tab, it's a tough pill to swallow.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: I'm slow on the uptake re Pinehurst
« Reply #29 on: June 10, 2014, 10:56:32 AM »
Pete, you make a good point. I think we overrate Pinehurst's firmness a bit. I've played it during perfect weather at the end of the summer/early fall. The courses in the area were all about equally firm and fast for me, and while the ball rolls in Pinehurst, it's still Bermuda and thus still a little bit sticky. The ground game is certainly alive, don't get me wrong. But compared to typical US Open conditions, I don't think Pinehurst is going to be much firmer than Olympic, Oakmont, Shinnecock, or any other venue when the weather cooperates.

I have a good friend and former superintendent who played Pinehurst and Muirfield Village during stretches of good weather last year, and when I asked him which he preferred, the answer surprised me. He said "Muirfield Village. Pinehurst was great, but Muirfield was much firmer and faster and that's what makes a course come alive for me." He cited several holes at Muirfield Village where he got 60 yards of roll when playing a lower shot, while Pinehurst was just an average "firm and fast" but not uniquely so. I haven't played Muirfield Village, but his perception of Pinehurst matches mine. It plays nicely, but it's no Kingsley or Wild Horse.

It'll be firm this week because it's a US Open, but I doubt an Iron Byron would get more roll at Pinehurst this week than it would've received at Olympic a couple years ago or Oakmont when Cabrera was hitting 380 yard drives.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: I'm slow on the uptake re Pinehurst
« Reply #30 on: June 10, 2014, 11:04:53 AM »
A question (as I really don't know the answer): while many of C&C's own courses have the width and interesting greens of this Ross restoration, do any of them play as long as 7500 yards-Par 70?

Bill and Ben try really hard to de-emphasize length, and several of their courses are below 7000 yards or right around there.  However, like everyone else, their clients are constantly pushing for more, asking them to add tees, etc.  And certainly the USGA asked for more length at Pinehurst, which they would have done regardless of whether there was "no rough" or knee-high rough.

The truth is, 7500 yards par 70 is STILL not a long course for the Tour pros by the standard of Bobby Jones or Ben Hogan ... it probably plays shorter for today's golfer than what Deane Beman was facing in the 1960's.  It's the equipment, or the players, or some combination thereof.

And in spite of that, Peter, I played No. 2 in November and had a blast.  I did not find it an especially imposing or backbreaking test for my 10+ handicap, from the regular tees.  It's certainly not an easy course ... no U.S. Open venue is ... but it's possible to have fun there.

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I'm slow on the uptake re Pinehurst
« Reply #31 on: June 10, 2014, 11:14:35 AM »
Whole Lotta Pallotta:

You have to go to Pinehurst.  There is a lot of fun to be had.  I even loved #1, which routinely gets panned and probably has the lowest amount of rounds played.  If you like hitting 9-iron into greens, play #1.  I also liked 4, 5 and 9.  As for #2, it was a lot of fun, even if the greens are diabolical for a chopper (10) like me.  When I got to the 18th green, the church bells in the village started ringing, I looked over at the statue of Payne Stewart and damned if I didn't get goosebumps.  It's the golf equivalent of going to church for this heathen.  Pinehurst is all good, IMHO, and if you can cap it off with Mid-Pines, Pine Needles and Forest Creek, it's pretty hard to top.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2014, 11:25:15 AM by Terry Lavin »
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Jim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I'm slow on the uptake re Pinehurst
« Reply #32 on: June 10, 2014, 11:52:52 AM »

Jim Nugent, designer of the esteemed Phoenix Links, DJ is still a better golf athlete than Jack was, but Jack is clearly the greater champion.


What is a better golf athlete?


hhuffines

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I'm slow on the uptake re Pinehurst
« Reply #33 on: June 10, 2014, 02:02:28 PM »
Whole Lotta Pallotta:

You have to go to Pinehurst.  There is a lot of fun to be had.  I even loved #1, which routinely gets panned and probably has the lowest amount of rounds played.  If you like hitting 9-iron into greens, play #1.  I also liked 4, 5 and 9.  As for #2, it was a lot of fun, even if the greens are diabolical for a chopper (10) like me.  When I got to the 18th green, the church bells in the village started ringing, I looked over at the statue of Payne Stewart and damned if I didn't get goosebumps.  It's the golf equivalent of going to church for this heathen.  Pinehurst is all good, IMHO, and if you can cap it off with Mid-Pines, Pine Needles and Forest Creek, it's pretty hard to top.

+1.  I enjoy Course no. 1 too, especially with my son!  It was great to hear Mr. Padgett (Pinehurst Exec) mention Ran's input prior to the C & C changes.

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I'm slow on the uptake re Pinehurst
« Reply #34 on: June 10, 2014, 02:05:09 PM »

Jim Nugent, designer of the esteemed Phoenix Links, DJ is still a better golf athlete than Jack was, but Jack is clearly the greater champion.


What is a better golf athlete?

Stronger in arms and legs, taller, faster hands. What you do with it from there is up to you.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I'm slow on the uptake re Pinehurst
« Reply #35 on: June 10, 2014, 03:03:05 PM »
The "better golf athlete" has superior balls. 
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Andrew Buck

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I'm slow on the uptake re Pinehurst
« Reply #36 on: June 10, 2014, 05:28:16 PM »
Coore and Crenshaw are almost going through the course hole by hole, and they said, "This is Ross' course NOT ours.." Agreed for the most part, but what about the extra 1000 (give or take) yards??? ;D

Trick Question-  So what percentage of the $410 (?) green fee is from the extra 1000 yards?

Probably 300.  If it wasn't expanded, and restored at a length were it would only be a course that could host major tournaments long ago, it would probably cost $100 - $150, similar to old major venues like French Lick. 

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I'm slow on the uptake re Pinehurst
« Reply #37 on: June 10, 2014, 05:52:06 PM »
If the fairways are running, they'd destroy the course at less than 7500 yards. This should be a great tournament to watch.
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I'm slow on the uptake re Pinehurst
« Reply #38 on: June 10, 2014, 06:12:30 PM »
Dear Peter, 

You're not . . . you're not . . . slow on the uptake concerning Pinehurst.

Sincerely,
Ty Webb
------------------
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Richard Hetzel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I'm slow on the uptake re Pinehurst
« Reply #39 on: June 10, 2014, 07:19:20 PM »
J - if i ever get down there, I think I'll have to be satisfied with Mid Pines and Pine Needles instead.

Besides the cost, and as Scott suggested, there are a heck of a lot of long par 4s and par 3s there, and they will still be (relatively) long no matter what set of tees I play.

Folks mention fast and firm conditions, and I accept their word for it. But do you ever find that when you get to a course noted for fast and firm fairways, you just happen -- more often than not -- to play it on a day when its slow and soggy?

Back in 2007 I had the option of playing PH No 2 just once, or Mid Pines AND Pineneedles. I chose the latter and liked both MP and PN. I will go and play the restored No 2 in the winter when the fees are much less.
Best Played So Far This Season:
Crystal Downs CC (MI), The Bridge (NY), Canterbury GC (OH), Lakota Links (CO), Montauk Downs (NY), Sedge Valley (WI)

Jim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I'm slow on the uptake re Pinehurst
« Reply #40 on: June 11, 2014, 01:39:41 AM »

Jim Nugent, designer of the esteemed Phoenix Links, DJ is still a better golf athlete than Jack was, but Jack is clearly the greater champion.


What is a better golf athlete?

Stronger in arms and legs, taller, faster hands. What you do with it from there is up to you.

Seems to me a narrow definition of a 'golf athlete', and you haven't really demonstrated DJ has more of those qualities than Jack did. 

But either way, Jack was a far better golfer than DJ, which is what counts to me, not theoretical golfing athletic abilities. 

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