[Lou_Duran]

I've walked a RTJ Trail course.  It isn't the preferred route and I agree that they were built with carts in mind.  I'm pretty sure I walked whichever of the Links and the Lake that we played in the morning though I can't distinguish one from another any more.  Might have walked the Senator as well.  I really don't remember any more.

My son and I walked both courses at Grand National/Auburn back in 2000.  The hike across the lake was endless.  I think we also walked one of the courses in Montgomery, and at Cambrian Ridge.  It was 4.5-5 hour golf and we had all day, so it was not big deal.  By the end of the trip we were on carts all the time, finishing with friends at the TPC Sugarloaf.  Today I wouldn't even consider it.

[Bill_McBride]

I've walked a RTJ Trail course.  It isn't the preferred route and I agree that they were built with carts in mind.  I'm pretty sure I walked whichever of the Links and the Lake that we played in the morning though I can't distinguish one from another any more.  Might have walked the Senator as well.  I really don't remember any more.

My son and I walked both courses at Grand National/Auburn back in 2000.  The hike across the lake was endless.  I think we also walked one of the courses in Montgomery, and at Cambrian Ridge.  It was 4.5-5 hour golf and we had all day, so it was not big deal.  By the end of the trip we were on carts all the time, finishing with friends at the TPC Sugarloaf.  Today I wouldn't even consider it.

Similar situation to Rancho San Marcos near Santa Barbara, nice walk except for two brutal treks.  Same at Grand National, they should position carts at the treks.  But that would require a couple of shuttle drivers so the courses become 100% riding.  Bummer.

[DMoriarty]

If it wasn't for carts I couldn't play golf, and I'm sure that many other ardent golfers are in the same boat, so I don't understand the anti-cart angst.

Patrick,

I think the "anti-cart angst" has been drastically overstated.  I think carts are great for allowing ardent golfers to continue to play golf when they otherwise wouldn't be able to play.  I have no problem with that whatsoever.   My concern is with architecture built for the exclusive (or near exclusive) use by those in carts.
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david,

I'm not familiar with or can't recall any courses built with architecture for the exclusive or near exclusive use of carts.

It's hard for me to visualize a substantive difference

Do any course come to mind ?

Patrick, I am referring to newer courses where the business model and architectural model are geared toward the cart ball golfer.   These courses often feature very long transitions between green and tee, long transitions to and from the course from the clubhouse, steep and awkward terrain especially between holes, difficult or impossible walking transitions within the holes (around lakes and washes), etc.  

As for examples, a few pages back I listed out the 12 courses which have been built within 45 minutes of my house in the past two decades.  11 of the 12 were built for use primarily by carts.  Although a few of these might be walkable for those who are willing to try, the model seems to have been geared toward cart golf.  Some do not allow walking even if if the golfer prefers to walk and is willing to brave the trek.  

As some of the other examples show, sometimes these modern courses could be walked by those in shape and willing to try, but they clearly are not designed with walking in mind and most end up not even considering walking as an option.  Or they walk once or twice then give up and start riding like everyone else.  

[Joe Sponcia]

I've walked a RTJ Trail course.  It isn't the preferred route and I agree that they were built with carts in mind.  I'm pretty sure I walked whichever of the Links and the Lake that we played in the morning though I can't distinguish one from another any more.  Might have walked the Senator as well.  I really don't remember any more.

My son and I walked both courses at Grand National/Auburn back in 2000.  The hike across the lake was endless.  I think we also walked one of the courses in Montgomery, and at Cambrian Ridge.  It was 4.5-5 hour golf and we had all day, so it was not big deal.  By the end of the trip we were on carts all the time, finishing with friends at the TPC Sugarloaf.  Today I wouldn't even consider it.

Lou...and it sounded like Bill as well,

The RTJ is the epitome of cart golf.  I used to travel the area for years.  Customers always wanted to play there and shoot 10 shots higher than normal.  Rounds were typically 5 hour events.  Sugarloaf, old BellSouth Classic used to be one of the most miserable walks when it was a tour event.  The entire Ocean Ridge Plantation in Sunset, NC (4 courses) is cart golf.  Barefoot Resort (Norman, Dye, Fazio, and Love) all cart tracks.  Tidewater in North Myrtle...same.  

What kills me are the number of USGA mid-am sites last year that were essentially death marches.  Lawrence Largent and I played Old Chatham, elevated tee...walk down to the green, trek up the hill to the next tee box...down to the green.  The competitor I played with had to be carted off due being dehydrated after 15 holes.  The other choices were Graystone outside of Nashville or Tennessee National (Norman)...horrible walks.

[Bill Seitz]

David,

Since John was adamant about limiting this to private courses, how about adding Wood Ranch to that list?  It's walkable for college golfers (we walked 36 in a college tournament), but even that required a shuttle or two on the course to take you from a green to a tee.  There wasn't a bench to be found on the entire property, and it was fairly clear that walking wasn't really something they planned to encourage, if even allow for normal play.

And I think that gets to what you're talking about.  Whether the use of carts is built into the revenue model or not, a lot of these are courses that simply would not be built if not for the existence of carts.  It's not so much that you had a developer decide his goal was to build a riding only course.  It's that the developer had a piece of property on which to build a golf course, and there was simply no way to build a course on that specific piece of property where the average golfer could be encouraged to walk.  It was alluded to earlier, but it's tough to find property in the LA area where that's not the case.  One could argue that its been a good thing because without cart ball courses, we wouldn't have places like Hidden Valley.  The downside to that is that because of the existence of the cart, we've ended up with (what some might call) atrocities like Hidden Valley (and Tierra Rejada which, like you've indicated, is just awful). 

[DMoriarty]

Thanks Bill,

I've never had the pleasure of playing Wood Ranch and don't plan on going out of my way to see it.  I cut my list off above at 20 years just to keep in manageable, but if we went back a bit further Wood Ranch (and others) would be on the list.

Definitely finding good property is difficult in L.A  But I don't entirely agree that the proliferation of cart ball courses is purely a matter of the difficulty of the site.  Angeles National should have been a course well suited to walking, but they didn't even bother to try.  Other of the courses would have been more difficult walks, but with some effort on the part of the designer I think more readily walkable course could have been built.  Once carts are added to the equation, most developers and designers seem to loose all incentive to even bother to try to make a course walkable.  It makes some sense, given that carts are viewed as a revenue generator.  Whatever the reason, it just doesn't seem to be much of a consideration at all.  And that, I think, leads to weaker architecture (whether or not the golfers are riding or walking.)

[Lou_Duran]

I suspect that developers build courses that their customers want to play.  If 70% to 90% of golfers prefer to use carts, how much effort and expense should the developer devote to overcoming a myriad of routing issues to satisfy the desires of the 10%-30%?  And to channel John Kavanaugh, without ill intent (he once accused me of being a cheapskate for walking), what percentage of revenues might be forthcoming from this group?  Based on my experience, it will be significantly less proportionally than their numbers, say 5%-20%.  I doubt that developers think "let's screw the walkers when we put this puppy on the ground".  Instead, not seeing walking as an integral part of the golf experience, they probably try to find a balance that appeals to their customer base which provide the necessary revenues and profits to meet their financial objectives.

As to atrocities, let's not blame them all to customer-driven cart golf.  The four courses I mentioned earlier (Costa Mesa CC/Muni and Mile Square) are no architectural plums and they are very easy to walk.  Nonetheless, they are generally packed with 5 to 6 hour rounds common.  I didn't play Hidden Valley or Tierra Rajada during my exile in SoCal, but I would bet that they are busy places with customers who would beg to differ (as to being atrocities).

[DMoriarty]

Lou,

I agree that that developers are basing their business plans on the assumption that most golfers will ride anyway, and that they think this is a rational business decision. But I don't think this results in them trying to find a balance between walking and riding. Rather,  I think it results in them creating courses for those who ride.  In my opinion, the architecture suffers, as does golf generally, at least in the long run. 

I didn't play Hidden Valley or Tierra Rajada during my exile in SoCal, but I would bet that they are busy places with customers who would beg to differ (as to being atrocities).

Regarding the financial success of these two courses, I'd take that bet.  I think that Tierra Rejada, a near neighbor of Rustic's, has been in and out of receiverships.  I believe most of the courses on my cart ball list above have experienced severe financial hardships.  You mention Hidden Valley which wasn't on my list because it is not close to where I live.  Hidden Valley resorted to some pretty interesting "promotions" to try and boost revenues . . . 

http://articles.latimes.com/2004/nov/05/local/me-golfsex5

[Brent Hutto]

Like so many things in life, two different trends reinforced each other and led to the reality of golf today. The biggest, easiest, most widely available source of money for building golf courses over a period of decades was as a residential amenity. As a result courses were built that no walking golfer could truly love. Therefore "cart ball" courses became ubiquitous and were situated throughout the suburban areas in which a large part of the population lives.

As a result, generations of golfers came along who thought of golf as an activity that either absolutely or darned near required the use of a golf cart. That's how the course(s) in their neighborhood were built and run, it's just how it is. Probably a lot of people's first exposure to golf in any form was riding along in a golf cart while someone else played (that was true in my own case I know).

So you had this self-reinforcing pair of trends driving the game more and more into being (for most people) something involving motorized carts. And keep in mind that these same suburbs were full of people who never in their entire lives had walked to work or to school or to anywhere else. They were in automobile-oriented suburbs and even if they lived 3/4 of a mile from the neighborhood golf course they were 100% likely to drive their automobile that 3/4 of a mile.

People who drive an automobile eight blocks to the place they are going for their "activity" or 'exercise" or "recreation" sure as hell aren't going walk when they get there. Not when a motorized cart is bundled into the price of a round of golf anyway. It's a cultural thing. Nobody set out to turn golf into an idiotic looking parade of fat guys in carts, it just naturally arose because the context in which these courses were being built.

But the whole thing is path dependent. Whether those trends remain in the future (and it sure looks like residential-amenity golf construction has died the real death) golf is now entrenched as a game involving a ball, a bag of clubs and a motorized conveyance. I can't see any countervailing trend on the horizon to make that work any differently. Especially now that the meme of "cart revenue" is firmly entrenched in the thinking of course operators everywhere. Walking a golf course has evolved from the obvious way to play the game into an affectation of dilettantes and rich guys in the general public perception.

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