[Ulrich Mayring]

This is probably only interesting to those, who have played both courses. While writing these lines I don't know the result of this match-up, but I predict a very close match.

Hole 1: This must go to Ganton, a very fine opening tee shot over glorious heather and a beautiful green, while Alwodley's #1 is just a little bit too straightforward. Ganton 1 up.

Hole 2: Ganton presents a stern par 4, a bit similar to the first. The winner is Alwoodley's driveable, blind par 4. All square.

Hole 3: Alwoodley has a fine par 5 with lots of heather, but not much strategy involved. Ganton's short par 4 has a magnificent central bunker that creates options. Ganton 1 up.

Hole 4: Alwoodley with a monstrous par 4, into the wind a three-shotter, lots of heather. Yeah, it's challenging, but Ganton wins on the merits of the unusual diagonal approach to its par 4. Ganton 2 up.

Hole 5: Alwoodley's hole. One of the most magnificent tee shots ever into a sea of heather. Ganton's short par 3 is also great and can be no less penal, but close is no cigar. Ganton 1 up.

Hole 6: Ganton's pond(!) hole. A par 5 peppered with bunkers. Alwoodley's par 4 too much of the same. Ganton 2 up.

Hole 7: Ganton's stroke index 1 hole, a long par 4 dogleg right - certainly a mammoth challenge. Alwoodley with a shortish MacKenzie par 3. I say this is halved and Ganton still 2 up.

Hole 8: Who wants to stink up to Alwoodley's grandiose, strategic par 5 signature hole? Ganton's par 4 bland in comparison. Ganton 1 up.

Hole 9: Ganton gives us a good par 5 with a wicked, tee-shot deflecting swale. Alwoodley's par 3s are hard to beat, though, I must give the nod to the good doctor here. This is a long club to a picturesque green with all kinds of interesting pin positions. All square.

Hole 10: Here comes Ganton's picturesque par 3. It is one hell of a hole (and one hell to hold). But watch out for Alwoodley's long par 4, where the tee shot has to use the ground contours to avoid the blind approach to a sunken, semi-raised (if that makes sense) green. This is halved and still all square.

Hole 11: Another fantastic MacKenzie par 3, not too long, but uphill to a severely sloping green. Alwoodley's hole, as we are getting a little frustrated with Ganton's heinous fairway bunkering. Alwoodley 1 up.

Hole 12: Diagonal, cape-like risk/reward tee shot at Ganton, even average hitters have to go over a tree. Alwoodley just a pretty blonde here. All square.

Hole 13: Ganton with a good par 5, but not a world-beater. Well, it would be a fantastic hole on most other courses, but not here. Alwoodley with a straightish par 4, but MacKenzie's fairway bunkering pulls in a half. Still all square.

Hole 14: Alwoodley fires its last round as far as par 3s go and it is a good one. Just a tad better is Ganton's driveable par 4, although I must say that all that is driveable on this hole is the bunker. Ganton 1 up.

Hole 15: Alwoodley's classic dogleg right par 4, demanding a perfect tee shot over beautiful patches of heather and an approach over a central bunker to a difficult green - great stuff. Ganton's par 4, well, I think we've seen it before. All square.

Hole 16: Much is made of the drive at Alwoodley's par 4, but it's again just a pretty blonde. The approach is much more interesting strategically. Ganton gives us a fiendish cross-bunker and all sorts of strategic thinking to avoid an awkward angle for the approach from behind the trees. Ganton's hole and Ganton 1 up.

Hole 17: Ganton's final par 3 and it's a monster. Some say the most difficult in Britain. A very long club, possibly driver, but a running shot is just about possible. Alwoodley, on the other hand, with its one infamous hole - praised by some, cursed by many. A blind approach to a sunken green, invariably the player has too much club in his hands. This is halved and Ganton goes to 18 still 1 up.

Hole 18: Alwoodley with its most challenging hole, a long slog of a par 4 with an elevated tee shot. Very rewarding though, to play towards the famous clubhouse. Ganton with a manageable par 4, but with a blind tee shot (although there is a viewing platform to climb) and it is easy to get the angle wrong and be blocked out for the approach. Strategic and quirky, but once the drive is on the fairway, the drama is more or less over - whereas Alwoodley's hole is a championship decider all the way to the green. I will halve it in bad weather, which would give Ganton a 1 up win. In firm and fast conditions I give the nod to Alwoodley, which would tie the match.

Ulrich

[Mac Plumart]

Ulrich...

thanks for posting that.  I haven't played either course, but I am bursting at the seems to get across the pond to play golf.  This is especially so after reading "A Round of Golf Courses" that GCA's own Tony Weiler passed along to me as a very thoughtful gift.

I have to assume that your scoring of the "match" is correct inasmuch as Ganton would be the winner as Ganton is one of the courses mentioned in Mr. Dickinson's book.

Here is a brief excerpt from his chapter on Ganton...please tell me if you agree with his assessment.

"Ganton doesn't gamble.  Play steadily, play discreetly, and play with good taste and common sense.  The course is like one of those well-made, close knit, sober poems from which it is impossible to pick out a purple passage--the effect is cumulative--at the end, you  suddenly realise "that was really good"..."

"I think another of Ganton's siren secrets is that as soon as you finish you want to start again.  However well you played--you could surely do better, and it entices you out to try again, and again.  For a golfing holiday...Ganton is ideal.  You will never get tired of the course and it will not get tired of you."

[Bill_McBride]

Ulrich, nice recap of Alwoodley. I haven't played Ganton but it's obviously a fine course if it ties Alwoodley. (I'm giving the 18th to Alwoodley because I hear it always drains well!).

I think you are giving short shrift to Alwoodley's 6th and 12th however. I loved how the sloping hillside on #6 hid the left half of the wide fairway, forcing tee shots out to the right and possibly into the tree line. And I also loved the carry over lots of heather on #12, the only forced carry I can recall on the course.

[Steve Lang]

  I've played Ganton, hosted by a member whom I had hosted at WCC here in Houston.  LOved the clubhouse and looking at the stuff on the walls..,

I note you didn't mention much of the gorse in play there.. or is that what you refer to as "heather" and didn't really mention the topography or sandy  inland links nature much that helps make  Ganton special.

any nore thoughts?

thanks

[Ash Towe]

Having played both courses I have found Ganton to be a stern test but very enjoyable.  Alwoodley a bit more fun and a few different angles. However I would be happy to play both again and would find it difficult to split the two.

[Ulrich Mayring]

"Ganton doesn't gamble.  Play steadily, play discreetly, and play with good taste and common sense.  The course is like one of those well-made, close knit, sober poems from which it is impossible to pick out a purple passage--the effect is cumulative--at the end, you  suddenly realise "that was really good"..."

This is a great description of Ganton. All the holes are very good. Alwoodley has a couple of stand-outs and some merely good holes. But both courses are great, so whatever criticism I dish out here is really splitting hairs for the sake of scoring the match.

Both courses drain extremely well, Ganton has this inland links feel with all the gorse, Alwoodley more of a heathland/moorland feel. Maybe Ganton's soil is a bit more sandy, after all, it used to be a links course a couple of thousand years ago. But considering Alwoodley's undulations it must play just a little slower. Ganton is pretty flat.

@Bill McBride: #6 and #12 at Alwoodley are good holes and I fully agree with your description of the merits of either tee shot (although I would add #18 as another hole with a forced carry). But Ganton's pond hole and the cape #12 are in my eyes better.

Ulrich

[Bill_McBride]

"Ganton doesn't gamble.  Play steadily, play discreetly, and play with good taste and common sense.  The course is like one of those well-made, close knit, sober poems from which it is impossible to pick out a purple passage--the effect is cumulative--at the end, you  suddenly realise "that was really good"..."

This is a great description of Ganton. All the holes are very good. Alwoodley has a couple of stand-outs and some merely good holes. But both courses are great, so whatever criticism I dish out here is really splitting hairs for the sake of scoring the match.

Both courses drain extremely well, Ganton has this inland links feel with all the gorse, Alwoodley more of a heathland/moorland feel. Maybe Ganton's soil is a bit more sandy, after all, it used to be a links course a couple of thousand years ago. But considering Alwoodley's undulations it must play just a little slower. Ganton is pretty flat.

@Bill McBride: #6 and #12 at Alwoodley are good holes and I fully agree with your description of the merits of either tee shot (although I would add #18 as another hole with a forced carry). But Ganton's pond hole and the cape #12 are in my eyes better.

Ulrich

Ulrich, it must have been great to play those two gems back to back!

[Ally Mcintosh]

Alwoodley is one of my favourite courses. I think the place is great.


But.... I just played Ganton yesterday for the first time and it exceeded my extremely high expectations... The course is stunning.


Whilst we all like to decry bunkers as overused, there is no doubt that they add huge strategic value when properly placed, even if they are in abundance. You cannot play Ganton without thinking yourself around. (The same applies to Riviera, another course famous for its bunkers). There are plenty great courses  where the modern game has superseded strategic intent. That is definitely not the case at Ganton.


I play again on Monday so am sure I will have more to say after that.

[Jon Wiggett]

Ally,


glad you enjoyed it. Ganton is a fantastic course and as you say a masterclass in bunkering. I hope at some point the club sees the wisdom in creating the width that used to exist in the 80's. Enjoy your game on Monday.


Jon

[Sean_A]

Jon

For sure, the bunkering and conditioning are miles beyond Ganton's presentation. 

Ciao 

[Mark Bourgeois]

Hi Ally


Since you're playing Ganton 2x, obviously you're well so no need to ask! Hoping you can give us your thoughts in greater detail after Monday's play. Interested in your thoughts on the greens (in addition to the bunkering).


Best


Mark

[Ally Mcintosh]

Hi Ally


Since you're playing Ganton 2x, obviously you're well so no need to ask! Hoping you can give us your thoughts in greater detail after Monday's play. Interested in your thoughts on the greens (in addition to the bunkering).


Best


Mark

I've been back a few weeks and believe that Ganton is the best inland course in GB&I that I've seen.


I love the Surrey heathlands - they are beautiful, firm and provide fantastic, individual golf. But when push comes to shove, with a couple of notable exceptions, the heathlands don't provide great green contouring. A number of them don't even provide hugely strategic bunker and hazard placements.


Ganton has the most wonderful, elegant sets of greens I have come across. Lovely movement in them, beautiful to look at. Add that in with bunker placement that would give Riviera a run for its money in terms of positioning and you have a golf course that gives you everything you should want.


The more I think about it, the more obvious this becomes.


Only negative are 3, perhaps 4 holes that feel just a little tight. But I often find that courses feel a little tight until you work out how to play them. Repeated play gives added reward.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I don't think I'd ever think to compare those two courses. Ganton is compared to Woodhall Spa more orten because of the bunkering. They are so different in design, and presentation. I played them on the same trip one day after the other. I loved sharp lines that delineate the bunkers at Ganton and the scruffy looking bunkers at Alwoodley. I like the stern test that Ganton offered and the firm and fast conditions. For its notoriety it is very low key. It is a place I could be a member and be very happy playing it day in and day out. I'm not sure I understand the 18th hole's flexibility, but there was nothing I didn't like. Alwoodley is just pure fun. The routing is brilliant and the shots into the greens demanding yet not overly penal. How do you go wrong playing either.

[Sean_A]

This is probably only interesting to those, who have played both courses. While writing these lines I don't know the result of this match-up, but I predict a very close match.

Hole 1: This must go to Ganton, a very fine opening tee shot over glorious heather and a beautiful green, while Alwodley's #1 is just a little bit too straightforward. Ganton 1 up.

Not so fast my friend.  There is nothing obvious to me that Ganton is the better hole and Alwoodley's setting nestled near the house is lovely. Draw

Hole 2: Ganton presents a stern par 4, a bit similar to the first. The winner is Alwoodley's driveable, blind par 4. All square. 

Yes, Alwoodley +1

Hole 3: Alwoodley has a fine par 5 with lots of heather, but not much strategy involved. Ganton's short par 4 has a magnificent central bunker that creates options. Ganton 1 up.

Yes, all square

Hole 4: Alwoodley with a monstrous par 4, into the wind a three-shotter, lots of heather. Yeah, it's challenging, but Ganton wins on the merits of the unusual diagonal approach to its par 4. Ganton 2 up.

I think its a draw, all square

Hole 5: Alwoodley's hole. One of the most magnificent tee shots ever into a sea of heather. Ganton's short par 3 is also great and can be no less penal, but close is no cigar.

Ganton 1 up.

Yes, Alwoodley +1

Hole 6: Ganton's pond(!) hole. A par 5 peppered with bunkers. Alwoodley's par 4 too much of the same. Ganton 2 up.

Draw, Alwoodley +1

Hole 7: Ganton's stroke index 1 hole, a long par 4 dogleg right - certainly a mammoth challenge. Alwoodley with a shortish MacKenzie par 3. I say this is halved and Ganton still 2 up.

I will take the par 4, all square

Hole 8: Who wants to stink up to Alwoodley's grandiose, strategic par 5 signature hole? Ganton's par 4 bland in comparison. Ganton 1 up.

Yes, Alwoodley +1

Hole 9: Ganton gives us a good par 5 with a wicked, tee-shot deflecting swale. Alwoodley's par 3s are hard to beat, though, I must give the nod to the good doctor here. This is a long club to a picturesque green with all kinds of interesting pin positions. All square.

I call it a draw, Alwoodley +1

Hole 10: Here comes Ganton's picturesque par 3. It is one hell of a hole (and one hell to hold). But watch out for Alwoodley's long par 4, where the tee shot has to use the ground contours to avoid the blind approach to a sunken, semi-raised (if that makes sense) green. This is halved and still all square.

I don't like Alwoodley's 10th at all...its a forced hole with a lot happening.  All aquare

Hole 11: Another fantastic MacKenzie par 3, not too long, but uphill to a severely sloping green. Alwoodley's hole, as we are getting a little frustrated with Ganton's heinous fairway bunkering. Alwoodley 1 up.

Yes, Alwoodley +1

Hole 12: Diagonal, cape-like risk/reward tee shot at Ganton, even average hitters have to go over a tree. Alwoodley just a pretty blonde here. All square.[/s]

Weakest matchup on the course, but Ganton's tree hole is dire.  Alwoodley +2

Hole 13: Ganton with a good par 5, but not a world-beater. Well, it would be a fantastic hole on most other courses, but not here. Alwoodley with a straightish par 4, but MacKenzie's fairway bunkering pulls in a half. Still all square.

Yes, Alwoodley +3

Hole 14: Alwoodley fires its last round as far as par 3s go and it is a good one. Just a tad better is Ganton's driveable par 4, although I must say that all that is driveable on this hole is the bunker. Ganton 1 up.

Yes, Alwoodley +2

Hole 15: Alwoodley's classic dogleg right par 4, demanding a perfect tee shot over beautiful patches of heather and an approach over a central bunker to a difficult green - great stuff. Ganton's par 4, well, I think we've seen it before. All square.

Sorry, Alwoodley ruined a good green, automatic loss of hole. Alwoodley +1


Hole 16: Much is made of the drive at Alwoodley's par 4, but it's again just a pretty blonde. The approach is much more interesting strategically. Ganton gives us a fiendish cross-bunker and all sorts of strategic thinking to avoid an awkward angle for the approach from behind the trees. Ganton's hole and Ganton 1 up.

I call it a half, trees do their best to ruin Ganton's hole. Alwoodley +1

Hole 17: Ganton's final par 3 and it's a monster. Some say the most difficult in Britain. A very long club, possibly driver, but a running shot is just about possible. Alwoodley, on the other hand, with its one infamous hole - praised by some, cursed by many. A blind approach to a sunken green, invariably the player has too much club in his hands. This is halved and Ganton goes to 18 still 1 up.

Not buying it, Ganton wins this by a country mile. All square

Hole 18: Alwoodley with its most challenging hole, a long slog of a par 4 with an elevated tee shot. Very rewarding though, to play towards the famous clubhouse. Ganton with a manageable par 4, but with a blind tee shot (although there is a viewing platform to climb) and it is easy to get the angle wrong and be blocked out for the approach. Strategic and quirky, but once the drive is on the fairway, the drama is more or less over - whereas Alwoodley's hole is a championship decider all the way to the green. I will halve it in bad weather, which would give Ganton a 1 up win. In firm and fast conditions I give the nod to Alwoodley, which would tie the match.

I give this one to Alwoodley, who wins +1

Ulrich, our cards are close and I reckon if Ganton were wider it would win. As is though, especially as Alwoodley wins the aesthtetics sweepstakes, in matchplay Alwoodley nips it.  In medal play, Ganton just nips it.  I can see folks going with either course.  I think the London heathlands rule the roost over these two though.  To me, WHO, St Georges Hill and Sunny Old are a clear cut above these two.  I would also add Gleneagles Kings as a better. But I will stick with Woking as the inland big gun I admire the most. Ganton would be a close 2nd.

Ciao

[JJShanley]

I played Ganton and Alwoodley over the recent Bank Holiday weekend, my first time playing either of them. Ganton has just held the Brabazon; Alwoodley was set up for a practice round ahead of the Yorkshire Amateur. Ganton's greens were firm, true, but on the slow side (probably letting them recover from the low cuts at the Brabazon). Alwoodley had quicker greens, more penal rough, and much tougher hole locations that bamboozled me. I don't know if that's all part of Alwoodley's daily presentation, but it made for a tough day for me from the 5th onwards.


I enjoyed both courses but I'm not sure I'd compare them to each other as I might Alwoodley to Moortown (which I played the next day) or Ganton to Muirfield. Ganton, for all the compelling golf that it offers, just doesn't have anything like the teeshot on Alwoodley's 5th hole. Or indeed like the 10th. Or a par 3 like the 11th. Or a greensite like the 17th. Moortown doesn't either, but then that's why folks often prefer Alwoodley.


My takeaway from Ganton was that as a much of a deserved reputation as it has for being penal, it's a very playable course. The bunkers are quite playable, even if the fairway traps probably mean you're just going to splash out sideways. I didn't think it particularly claustrophobic. Even the trees on 16 didn't bother me much (although my drive rolled behind one.) 18 does feel a little strange, although I enjoyed the hole. I hit driver as well as I have ever that day and felt comfortable hitting it almost every hole, even if there were other viable shots. You go from hitting all out heroic shots (that do still demand nuance) on 13-17 to having a blind drive that needs two more delicate shots (3w and 9i). It's a jarring but excellent change up, especially I would imagine in the context of matchplay.


Muirfield, which I loved on my one visit in June, is known for frequent changes in direction. This constantly prompts you to take into account a "new" wind, but Ganton has (I think) just two consecutive holes that follow the same direction. I also felt a sense of seclusion/disorientation in that I couldn't necessarily figure where I was in relation to where I had been, which I thought made the wind harder to discern. In fact, I might even go as far to say that Muirfield is the worse for lacking a hole of the length of Ganton's 3rd or 14th. (Or indeed Alwoodley's 2nd.)

However, and this is a hill I am willing to die on, the potato wedges I had at Alwoodley were among the top potato experiences I have had anywhere. (I understand that they were steamed, frozen, and double fried.) Good fish and chips along the road from Ganton, mind. Ganton Gold, which I recall someone mentioning here, was also excellent. I brought back three for the winter.

[Jim Hoak]

I played both these courses on a trip a couple of years back--and to me they show the danger/advantage of "expectations."  I played Ganton first--and I had very high expectations for the course based on what I had heard from others.  But--maybe because of drought conditions and an excessive firm/fast course--, I was mildly disappointed.  Next, we played Alwoodley, where I had heard nothing extraordinary about the course, other than that it was MacKenzie's first.  I enjoyed the course very much on several playings.
All in all, I would rate the courses equal--but that isn't what I went into play thinking.  If I had heard nothing beforehand on either course, I wonder if that would have changed my subsequent thinking.

[Jim Sherma]

No blind tastings in the course rating game.

[Tom_Doak]

Forty years ago when I arrived in the UK, Gannon was often touted as the best inland course in the country, and nobody had Alwoodley anywhere close to that.  MacKenzie’s name carries more weight now than it used to there.

[Tony_Muldoon]

I played Ganton and Alwoodley over the recent Bank Holiday weekend, my first time playing either of them. Ganton has just held the Brabazon; Alwoodley was set up for a practice round ahead of the Yorkshire Amateur. Ganton's greens were firm, true, but on the slow side (probably letting them recover from the low cuts at the Brabazon). Alwoodley had quicker greens, more penal rough, and much tougher hole locations that bamboozled me. I don't know if that's all part of Alwoodley's daily presentation, but it made for a tough day for me from the 5th onwards.


I enjoyed both courses but I'm not sure I'd compare them to each other as I might Alwoodley to Moortown (which I played the next day) or Ganton to Muirfield. Ganton, for all the compelling golf that it offers, just doesn't have anything like the teeshot on Alwoodley's 5th hole. Or indeed like the 10th. Or a par 3 like the 11th. Or a greensite like the 17th. Moortown doesn't either, but then that's why folks often prefer Alwoodley.


My takeaway from Ganton was that as a much of a deserved reputation as it has for being penal, it's a very playable course. The bunkers are quite playable, even if the fairway traps probably mean you're just going to splash out sideways. I didn't think it particularly claustrophobic. Even the trees on 16 didn't bother me much (although my drive rolled behind one.) 18 does feel a little strange, although I enjoyed the hole. I hit driver as well as I have ever that day and felt comfortable hitting it almost every hole, even if there were other viable shots. You go from hitting all out heroic shots (that do still demand nuance) on 13-17 to having a blind drive that needs two more delicate shots (3w and 9i). It's a jarring but excellent change up, especially I would imagine in the context of matchplay.


Muirfield, which I loved on my one visit in June, is known for frequent changes in direction. This constantly prompts you to take into account a "new" wind, but Ganton has (I think) just two consecutive holes that follow the same direction. I also felt a sense of seclusion/disorientation in that I couldn't necessarily figure where I was in relation to where I had been, which I thought made the wind harder to discern. In fact, I might even go as far to say that Muirfield is the worse for lacking a hole of the length of Ganton's 3rd or 14th. (Or indeed Alwoodley's 2nd.)

However, and this is a hill I am willing to die on, the potato wedges I had at Alwoodley were among the top potato experiences I have had anywhere. (I understand that they were steamed, frozen, and double fried.) Good fish and chips along the road from Ganton, mind. Ganton Gold, which I recall someone mentioning here, was also excellent. I brought back three for the winter.

What no Ganton "Cake"?  I still wonder how I survived eating an inch of rich fruitcake with an inch of Stilton on top, one of the most memorable tastes I've ever experienced! I would never normally order either, but I loved it!


3 rounds at Alwoodley were followed by two at Ganton and without a forensic examination as above, its Ganton i want to play again. That and Sunny Old are top of the list of inland courses I want to reprise.

[Sean_A]

Unfortunately, on my last visit to Alwoodley all the good work of clearing out rough seemed to have stopped. The rough was once again a mess. A course which plays f&f needs either extra width or mild rough. Neither Ganton or Alwoodley are role models in this regard. As playability is king, this is a significant tick against each course.

Ciao

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