[BCowan]

the Golden Age?  Without mentioning billy bunkers. 

[Mike_Young]

Ben,
I don't think it's technique as much as product.  The key for good drainage in clay is speed at which water can be removed an if it is possible to use sheet drainage...and then seems to be a lot of sandcapping now if it can be afforded...

[BCowan]

Mike,

   Are drainage ditches out of vogue due to EPA concerns or aesthetics IYO?

[Mike_Young]

I don't know...one can shape a drainage ditch where most will never know it was a ditch so probably not...

[Greg Chambers]

The EPA loves drainage ditches

[BCrosby]

Mike -


I see catch basins on modern clay-based courses. Sometimes dozens of them. On some modern courses each green will have a couple. They all come with charming metal grates.

I don't see them on ODG courses.

Were the ODG's just more imaginative about moving water off the course or is something else going on?

Bob

[Adam Clayman]

Bob, the modern architects have been whining about how the ODGs had their choice of sites. At least that was their excuse 30 years ago for not building more links courses.

[Mike_Young]

Mike -


I see catch basins on modern clay-based courses. Sometimes dozens of them. On some modern courses each green will have a couple. They all come with charming metal grates.

I don't see them on ODG courses.

Were the ODG's just more imaginative about moving water off the course or is something else going on?

Bob

EACH GUY DOES IT DIFFERENTLY.  Of course if it was a bad site and there was no elevation chane then perhaps catches allowed a golf course to go where it would not have been 50 years ago...water has to move one way or the other...

[BCrosby]

Adam -

I don't think the whole story is that ODG's had better sites. Any clay-based site is going to have drainage challenges somewhere to one degree or another.

I think it must have something to do with the importance the ODG's gave to drainage. It had a larger, ex ante role in the places they picked for their greens and in the kinds of surrounds they built around them. That is, if the drainage was problematical for a proposed location, whatever the virtues of that location, the ODG was more likely to site the green elsewhere.

On the Fazio model, modern archies are much more willing to pick green sites based solely on visuals. The thinking being that with a bit of money and a series of catch basins, drainage problems are a secondary consideration. Within limits, drainage today is seen as a manageable engineering challenge and does not drive the siting of architectural features as it once did.

Bob

   

[Jeff_Brauer]

Yah, but those drainage ditches are now called bio filters.  Back in style, upgraded a bit.

Short answer - plastic pipe.

I agree with MY, too. There are more catch basins now. 

Just as I started out on my own, the smooth wall interior HDPE drain pipe came on the market.  I don't recall the exact numbers, but concrete or corrugated metal were standard at the time.  the HDPE came in at about half the price, and because it's interior was smooth, flowed better. As a result,  where you needed a 12" pipe in concrete (and 15" in CMP) you could use 10" in HDPE, further lowering the cost.  At first, it was just in small sizes, but soon was sized all the way up to 48".

Architects realized it allowed more freedom and started designing drainage the way it could be done with the new tech.  I recall one of my guys going to the Cornish/Graves golf design class. They said that drainage was typically $50K and my guys stood up in class and said we averaged twice that.  Graves acknowledged that the "old way" was to open courses leaving a lot of problems for the super to fix slowly, but the trend would be to do more up front.

The sheet flow Mike Young mentions also got better.  The 1970's standard was "shoot for 2% and accept 1.5%."  That kept rising until we now shoot for 3%, but accept 2.5% as the absolute minimum drainage slope, and many guys don't accept less than 3%.  I guess it was sort of a sea change from accepting some areas didn't drain, and grading just what needed to be graded to realizing that it wasn't that much more to strip the entire hole in anticipation of grading everything to minimum drainage standards, and while you were at it, this obviously opened up more design options, which were soon explored.

Of course, full loop paths had positive impact on construction of clay based courses, as did more sophisticated irrigation. Neither was developed for courses built in perfect soil conditions.........Lightweight mowers probably helped maintenance, too.

Of course, iconoclasts here can easily question what went on, but a lot of it was positive for putting golf nearer different population locales.  The ODG designed in clay when commissioned to do so.

Bob, I am not sure siting greens has changed a lot over time.  No one I know actually sites a green in a swale as its always dangerous to really disrupt drainage patterns, even if it is possible to do so.

[BCrosby]

"... I am not sure siting greens has changed a lot over time.  No one I know actually sites a green in a swale as its always dangerous to really disrupt drainage patterns, even if it is possible to do so."

Jeff -

Yes, there are limits to where you can site a green, then and now.

But to what do you attribute the absence of catches on ODG courses and, by contrast, their frequency on modern courses?

Bob

[Jeff_Brauer]

Bob,

I presume you mean in the green surrounds?  Basically, what I said below. Once you have a pipe for cutting off any major flow before it crosses your fairway, which is sound practice in keeping the approach or surrounds dry, then adding any number of smaller basins, usually connected with 4-6" pipe is easier. 

Then, its a style choice, and the top guys kept experimenting, to create fw chipping areas, Donald Ross style chocolate drop mounds and grass bunkers in clay, etc.  Or as TD said on another thread, its each architect trying to do something different.  Then, a few got famous for reversing the trend.......

BTW, there are some downsides besides style to the extra basins.  They and the small pipes connecting them can clog often, they tend to stay wet around the basin, the lines settle, and on and on.  Its on of many areas where we keep seeking perfection via more and more complications, and its not hard to see that simplicity is probably the better solution in the end. 

As Einstein said, we should make things as simple as they can be, but no simpler.  I think he must have designed some golf course drainage......

[Jon Wiggett]

With drainage one of the biggest differences I see is the depth. On a clay based site the deeper you can go the better and on renovation jobs it is not unusual to come across old clay tile drains down at 4ft+ which have been in the ground for many decades (and usually forgotten about) but still working fine. It seems to me that today it is the exception to the rule to see basic main drainage systems going in at this sort of depth.

Jon

[Thomas Dai]

These days in temperate climates golf is pretty much a 365 days p/a game, even on inland clay sites. Back in yee olde days it was much more a seasonal game, especially inland. Did the fact that it was once more a seasonal game mitigate the then desire or necessity for as much drainage as is seen as appropriate in more modern times? Just asking.
Atb

[Mike_Young]

"... I am not sure siting greens has changed a lot over time.  No one I know actually sites a green in a swale as its always dangerous to really disrupt drainage patterns, even if it is possible to do so."

Jeff -

Yes, there are limits to where you can site a green, then and now.

But to what do you attribute the absence of catches on ODG courses and, by contrast, their frequency on modern courses?

Bob

Bob,
Let me take  stab....IMHO if one is given a site with 30-40 feet of elevation change and doesn't have to wrry about water from roads or house lots then he should be able to route a course that will drain without any or few catch basins.  If one is given a fairly flat site and he has to build up green sites and place roll in fairways etc then pipe will be needed...

Actually maybe Tom Doak could answer but I assume Pasatiempo has very few catch basins due to the barrancas and the elevations even though it has homes and streets.  But I would wager a modern land planner would have given the golf architect completely different land on that site and mucho basins would be needed..

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