[David_Tepper]

Interesting article about the economic impact of golf in the Scottish economy. I was surprised to read that Scotland gets more golf tourists from Europe than from North America.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/economic-driver-how-golf-is-worth-1bn-a-year-to-scotland.21257229

"One-third of green-fee payers came from outside Scotland – 57% from the rest of the UK, 19% from Europe, and 17% from North America."

[Niall Hay]

Very interesting David. Muirfield and Gleneagles will certainly help.

[Jim Sherma]

An awful lot of Swedes fly over regularly from what I understand.

[Ben Malach]

It is very true alot of our vistors in St. Andrews are from Europe. If you can name a semi afluent European country I have had a vistor from there. Its really cool to meet so many different people and yes Jim you are correct we do get a lot of scandinavian vistors.

[Mark Chaplin]

Just goes to show that whilst a lot of people on this site think that US income drives cheap member golf in Scotland the reality is somewhat different.

[Jon Wiggett]

Just goes to show that whilst a lot of people on this site think that US income drives cheap member golf in Scotland the reality is somewhat different.

Never heard that Mark. Most US visitors play the usual suspects missing out on playing the many lesser known courses that would really show what Scottish golf is all about.

Jon

[Ally Mcintosh]

Just goes to show that whilst a lot of people on this site think that US income drives cheap member golf in Scotland the reality is somewhat different.

Never heard that Mark. Most US visitors play the usual suspects missing out on playing the many lesser known courses that would really show what Scottish golf is all about.

Jon

A bit of a side question but relevant, especially in light of Ran’s review of Fraserburgh…

Jon, anyone – what Scottish courses that are off the trail do you think are the most undervalued in peoples’ conscious / magazine ratings etc…?

Links courses like Moray Old, Fraserburgh, Monifieth, Murcar, Panmure, Montrose, Brora, Irvine, Glasgow Gailes, Nairn Dunbar, Kilmarnock Barassie, Luffness New, Dunbar etc…?

In other words which one really should be a biggy? Any of them or are they a clear class below those that are better known?... There’s quite a few of these courses that I’ve yet to see (Moray Old and Nairn Dunbar next year though)…

Thanks,
Ally

[Dan Boerger]

Thanks to some wonderful generosity and advice from David Tepper, I was part of a small group that played Royal Dornoch, Golspie, Brora and Nairn this past May. We did our part to help the local economy and I really think we experienced some of what Scottish golf can be about.

[jeffwarne]

Isn't Trump Aberdeen bringing in 5 billion pounds a year to the economy by itself?

[Jon Wiggett]

Ally,

I don't think you experience the best of Scottish golf through playing the biggies. For me playing courses like Golspie the other day really highlight what golf here is all about. I would rather play Kilspindie (best members course IMHO worldwide) than Muirfield each day. There is something special about playing Carrbridge, Portmahomack or Abernethy where you put your money in the honesty box and go out and play a fun round at a reasonable price on a course that fits the landscape.

I don't agree with the ideology of charging what people will pay but rather prefer charging what you think it is worth. I guess that is why so many courses in the USA are going to the wall whilst here in Scotland so few are. Indeed, have any gone under financially in the last 5 years?

Jon

[Niall C]

DT

I'm also surprised. I didn't think that Americans made up that big a percentage. When I was a member at Gailes most of the visitors seemed to be Scandanavian or French. I suspect that a lot of that was down to the cheap flights flying into Prestwick but even so it was clear that Euro's provided a significant percentage of golfing visitors. What wasn't a surprise was that the vast majority of golfing "visitors" are UK golfers.

As an aside, why do Americans have an east coast bias ? I ask that as Rans recent thread on Fraserburgh gave me call to look at the Courses by Country section and its clear from the Scottish listings that Ran certainly has an east coast bias. Do those Americans on this board simply follow his lead or is their something about east coast courses that's different to west coast courses that Americans prefer ?

Niall

[Brent Hutto]

The USA golfers I'm acquainted with know of five "name" courses in Scotland. The Old Course, Carnoustie, Turnberry, Royal Dornoch and Muirfield. It would be a rare first-time or even second-time USA golf tourist to Scotland who does not make getting on at least two or three of those "names" his first priority. Only one of them is a West Coast course and three of the five are within easy driving distance of each other of the East Coast.

An itinerary limited to the West Coast and encompassing multiple courses other than Turnberry would be a third- or fourth-trip thing for many of them.

[Jon Wiggett]

Brent,

what about Troon or Prestwick?

[Brent Hutto]

I have never heard either of those words uttered by the guys at my club when they talk about travel, whether discussing trips they are planning, trips they want to take or trips they've made in the past. One guy asked me once (when he overheard me saying I was interested in off-the-beaten path golf courses) if I knew anything about Elie. But that's the one Scottish course outside of the five I named that I've encountered.

It would be interesting to draw one of those joke cartoon maps that show "How American Golfers Think of Scotland". It would have the other courses at St. Andrews depicted as tiny midges swarming around a gargantuan Old Course with Carnoustie an arms length away drawn to the scale of maybe a Pit Bull. Then the rest of Scotland would be way out on the margins, represented by Muirfield, Turnberry and Dornoch surrounded by wastelands. The St. Andrews hype machine, combined with frequent exposure to the Open Rota courses pretty much determine casual USA golfer's compass of Scottish golf. And even the "lesser" Open courses only come to mind in a year when they are hosting. It is a sadly limited view of the situation.

And of course the mind share accorded Irish golf is 10x greater than that of England when it comes to USA golf tourism...

[Paul Gray]

I don't agree with the ideology of charging what people will pay but rather prefer charging what you think it is worth. I guess that is why so many courses in the USA are going to the wall whilst here in Scotland so few are. Indeed, have any gone under financially in the last 5 years?

Jon

Interesting comment Jon and one which I have great respect for. However, I think what you've really highlighted here is the difference between clubs which actually charge what they can realistically get and clubs which overspend and therefore going hunting for an extra few quid and fail. In short, less wasted money on excessive manicuring means turning over a profit when charging a lower green fee. In essence, herein lies the beauty of traditional design and maintenance styles.

[Jud_T]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Q_ZzUqehbc

[Tom_Doak]

As an aside, why do Americans have an east coast bias ? I ask that as Rans recent thread on Fraserburgh gave me call to look at the Courses by Country section and its clear from the Scottish listings that Ran certainly has an east coast bias. Do those Americans on this board simply follow his lead or is their something about east coast courses that's different to west coast courses that Americans prefer ?

Two reasons:

1.  There are way more golf courses on the east coast of Scotland than the west coast -- specifically, there are a LOT more golf courses between Elie and Dornoch along the east coast, than between Troon and Fort William.  Percentage-wise, the quality of courses may be the same, but that leaves a lot more courses on the east coast worth profiling.

2.  It rains twice as much on the west coast courses, which dampens one's perspective on the quality of the architecture.

2. 

[Gary Slatter]

INTERESTING FIGURES  EXACTLY THE SAME AS WE HAD AT FAIRMONT IN 2007/8.
57% OTHER UK WAS OUR SURPRISE.

[Gary Slatter]

Just goes to show that whilst a lot of people on this site think that US income drives cheap member golf in Scotland the reality is somewhat different.

Never heard that Mark. Most US visitors play the usual suspects missing out on playing the many lesser known courses that would really show what Scottish golf is all about.

Jon

ALLY, THAT'S A FINE LIST!   
A bit of a side question but relevant, especially in light of Ran’s review of Fraserburgh…

Jon, anyone – what Scottish courses that are off the trail do you think are the most undervalued in peoples’ conscious / magazine ratings etc…?

Links courses like Moray Old, Fraserburgh, Monifieth, Murcar, Panmure, Montrose, Brora, Irvine, Glasgow Gailes, Nairn Dunbar, Kilmarnock Barassie, Luffness New, Dunbar etc…?

In other words which one really should be a biggy? Any of them or are they a clear class below those that are better known?... There’s quite a few of these courses that I’ve yet to see (Moray Old and Nairn Dunbar next year though)…

Thanks,
Ally

[Gary Slatter]

Tom is right on about both reasons, 1.  weather is better on the East side and 2.  there are more interesting experiences and courses.
EDINBURGH OR GLASGOW ?   

[Ally Mcintosh]

Tom is right on about both reasons, 1.  weather is better on the East side and 2.  there are more interesting experiences and courses.
EDINBURGH OR GLASGOW ?   

Glasgow by a mile...

It's just harder to understand for the fly-through visitor....

[Brent Hutto]

Tom is right on about both reasons, 1.  weather is better on the East side and 2.  there are more interesting experiences and courses.
EDINBURGH OR GLASGOW ?   

Glasgow by a mile...

It's just harder to understand for the fly-through visitor....

For one thing, the fly-through visitor won't be around long enough to learn to understand the way they talk in Glasgow. I got paired up with a couple of young Glaswegans (sp?) during an Open at Pitlochry. Might as well have been playing with guys speaking German or Swedish.

So maybe visiting their city would be more of the same. Real friendly but incomprehensible to a South Carolina boy...

[Tony_Muldoon]

Tom is right on about both reasons, 1.  weather is better on the East side and 2.  there are more interesting experiences and courses.
EDINBURGH OR GLASGOW ?   

Glasgow by a mile...

It's just harder to understand for the fly-through visitor....

Except in August!

I never thought to ask, any relation to my favourite son of Glasgow?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Rennie_Mackintosh

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