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Jason Hines

  • Karma: +0/-0
Firekeeper, Brauer, Mayetta, KS - 5-26-13

Every 2-3 months a few of us in north east Kansas try to get together to play new and different places away from our home courses and golf buddies.  My wife calls Daryn Soldan of Manhattan and Brandon Urban of Lawrence my “Little Internet Friends”.  Brandon was a late withdraw due to an ankle injury for our round at Firekeeper 15 miles north of Topeka belonging to the Prairie Band Potawatomi Nation.

I enjoyed the course’s routing with the first 6 holes through the prairie with the remaining 12 in and out of tree lines and shelter belts.  The fairways are bent grass vs. the territorial local champion of zoysia.

Favorite holes, #2 with the trench bunker, #7 par 3 and the brut #14, long par 5 into the wind.  Please fill in your own thoughts and comments around my terrible quality photos if you have played.

First photo is just off the first green to give you an idea of the terrain and surrounds of the first 6 holes.



Daryn in the trench bunker in front of the green on the 435 yard, par 4 #2.



Firekeeper fittingly utilizes windsocks vs. flags on their pins which is perfect for the Kansas wind.



Daryn's 2nd into the par 5, 505 yard #11



My tee shot on the par 3, 210 yard #13.  Two points of note, those are orange, not red tee box markers and I didn't realize that I had the same facial expressions as Karl from the movie "Sling Blade" when playing par 3s.



My birdie putt from the "Valley of Sin" at the front of the green of the 555 yard, par 5 #14.



185 yard, par 3, #16.



My approach on the split fairway, 430 yard par 4, #18.  I took the wuss option by hitting 3 wood off the tee leaving a 175 yard approach up the hill towards the green.  The other option would have been to try and carry a tee ball 235 yards up the right side directly into the 20 mph wind.  Still made bogey taking the wuss route.



And finally, what would a course tour in Kansas be without a photo of the local residents.








Ken Moum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Firekeeper Photos, Brauer - Begay, Mayetta, KS - 5-26-13
« Reply #1 on: May 26, 2013, 11:39:51 PM »
So... you came to Topeka to play a Brauer, and we left Topeka to play the other one.... in Manhattan.

Today reminded me why I want to interrogate Jeff every time I play one of his Kansas courses.

I made a pledge today to stop going back to Colbert, it's just not any fun for a 66-year-old 15 handicapper with a weak driver.  I feel mostly the same about Firekeeper, and I need to get back to Sand Creek Station to see if my first impressions were unfair.

The simple fact is that I don't get on well with courses where every bad shot involves a lost ball, and where even tee shots into the first few feet of rough often mean you can't advance the ball past the next cross-fairway hazard.

All three of these courses are beautiful to look at, and are excellent tests for good golfers from the back tees.  But from the ~6,000-yard tees I like to play, they end up with too many weird situations.  And example is 395-yard fourth at Colbert, where the ONLY rational option for me is to hit eight iron off the tee, nine wood for my second, and then wedge it on. 

Eighteen at Firekeeper is also weird.  Only a fool would try that right-hand fairway with the carry it entails, because the reward is so small. Now, I do have a friend who says he's gone right every time he's played there, but he's a long hitter playing from short tees.

Today, my friend and I (both seniors, ~15 handicap) had 11 holes with seven or worse for a score.  I play fairly regularly with some other senior players most of whom have indexes higher than mine.  They've made a few trips to Firekeeper and it crushed them as well.

I don't think golf courses need to be easy to have fun, but losing balls is never fun.  Today the staff at Colbert put a single with us, and he lost at least a dozen balls. And that's just dropping one in the fairway. If he'd played by the rules and taken stroke and distance, I think he might still be out there.

Tomorrow it's off to Swope Memorial for a little old-fashioned fun on a golf course.

Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Jason Hines

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Firekeeper Photos, Brauer - Begay, Mayetta, KS - 5-26-13
« Reply #2 on: May 27, 2013, 07:36:27 AM »
Hi Ken,

Next time we come through we’ll let you know in case you want to join us, we are trying to play some of the variety in Kansas outside our home courses.

I am a 13 handicap and not the greatest driver either and I played from the 6400 yard tees. I lost 3 balls and one of them was a pulled 5 wood from the fairway from #4.  Tee ball on #10 trying to cut the corner being cute and another tee ball on the long par 4 into the wind trying to kill the ball which was my mistake.

With the wind behind me on #8, I had to hit a 3 wood off the tee and ended up OK.  I found the rough on the first 6 holes very light and extremely thick on the remaining 12 holes.  Would definitely agree about 18, I thought from a routing and design perspective that the back flowed fairly well until you hit 18.  Would love to hear Jeff’s comments on the course.

I was a bit surprised that the course was not that busy for a Sunday of a holiday weekend.  I have not played Colbert Hills as of yet, that is Daryn Soldan’s home course and I am sure he has plenty of opinions as well.  We have decided that we are going to try to play Topeka Country Club before the end of the year to begin the Maxwell tour of Kansas.

Good luck today at Swope Park, I bet it will be very busy.

Jason

Ken Moum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Firekeeper Photos, Brauer - Begay, Mayetta, KS - 5-26-13
« Reply #3 on: May 27, 2013, 08:55:12 AM »
I think the reason both Firekeeper and Colbert aren't all that busy much of the time is a combination of the cost and the difficulty.

Although that aren't the "special" courses that Firekeeper is, a senior can walk on our local munis four or five times for costs with a cart.  And they aren't going to get beaten up.

The rack rate at Colbert is $80 which is more than I'd pay.  We got a Memorial Day coupon that was $31 off.

I'll be interested to see what you think of TCC.   Both my wife and I think there's nothing wrong with it that couldn't be fixed by a large crew of lumberjacks.  I have an aerial image from the 1940s that shows part of TCC and all the mature trees there now were saplings then.

So, like a lot of courses, the tree "problem" was man-made.

I'd invite you over to play Shawnee CC if the vandals from Great Life hadn't done their thing with it.  Maybe it will come around later this year... but I have my doubts.

K

Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Firekeeper Photos, Brauer - Begay, Mayetta, KS - 5-26-13
« Reply #4 on: May 27, 2013, 08:59:58 AM »
Ken,

Sorry you feel that way about the courses being too tough, CH excepted, since that was part of the program for a college level competition course.  However, given the 2000 era push for "Audubon Certification" and only 90 acres of turf, I think that sort of goes with the territory if you are a wild driver. 

Not sure what else I could do.  For the most part, there are turf corridors from tee to green for the shorter tees, albeit exactly two sprinklers wide for a length before widening out to 3-4 sprinklers, or 70-80 yards wide.  Maybe I need to widen out quicker from the tee?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jason Hines

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Firekeeper Photos, Brauer - Begay, Mayetta, KS - 5-26-13
« Reply #5 on: May 27, 2013, 09:24:42 AM »
Hi Jeff,

Could you tell me the history or idea behind the shared #1 and #6 green?

Also, would you mind speaking to the land selection and routing through the prairie on the front (for the most part) and trees on the back?  Any history or unique challenges when you were laying out the course?

http://goo.gl/maps/jLYrf

How about the selection of bent vs. zoysia?

Sorry for all the questions on a holiday morning, it just started raining and we are all stuck inside!

Jason

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Firekeeper Photos, Brauer - Begay, Mayetta, KS - 5-26-13
« Reply #6 on: May 27, 2013, 09:55:28 AM »
Jason,

No problem.

Combined greens?  That's one of those "Ode to the Old Course" things we architects like to do every so often.  Given that those greens were on the worst part of the property, with the casino view, road, etc., I felt like if we gave it something a bit different, it might distract.  Sort of a conversation piece.  The problem is we are so afraid of putting them as close as they were at TOC, the little connector isn't really convincing.  Also, 6 is a version of my "ultra long" green, and the hope is the pin is back, then on 1 its left or front.

One of the reasons I beleive we won the job over RTJII and others (aside from Notah, of course) was that he and I really spoke about the land, and its three sections and characteristics.  We really did know it, which was important to them.  

The CH was sort of set, both by the hill, and electric connections and jurisdictions (move it a bit west and electric rates would have doubled)  A few other competitors weren't aware of that fact, and placed it about where the 6/1 green sits now, which would have set up a west finishing golf cousre into the sun.  We felt that most golfers would also prefer the trees, so we started through the woods on 1 for a first impression (even though it opens up after) and saved both the treed areas and the NS orientation (easier to play than in a cross wind) for later in the round.

As to bent vs Zoysia, this was a low budget course, built for under $4M.  The extra Mil for Zoyzia was out of the question, and the seeded choices came down to between rye, bent and low mow blue.  We consulted with the late Stan George over at PD, among others, and it was clear that Rye is a constant reseeding challenge, low mow blue looked terrible wherever it had been used in the area, and we had success with bent at Sand Creek a few years earlier.  Bent it was, even if we would have preferred Zoysia.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2013, 09:59:11 AM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Ken Moum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Firekeeper Photos, Brauer - Begay, Mayetta, KS - 5-26-13
« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2013, 12:05:39 AM »
Ken,

Sorry you feel that way about the courses being too tough, CH excepted, since that was part of the program for a college level competition course.  However, given the 2000 era push for "Audubon Certification" and only 90 acres of turf, I think that sort of goes with the territory if you are a wild driver. 

Not sure what else I could do.  For the most part, there are turf corridors from tee to green for the shorter tees, albeit exactly two sprinklers wide for a length before widening out to 3-4 sprinklers, or 70-80 yards wide.  Maybe I need to widen out quicker from the tee?

Jeff, I'm not even sure it's your fault. 

The very concept of a course like Colbert is probably going to mean that short hitters are screwed.  If you're limited to 90 acres, and MUST have a course over 7,000 yards, the corridors can't be very wide. Also, the terrain of Colbert and somewhat Firekeeper, mean there are going to be a fair number of places where you have to hit it over serious trouble--sometimes more than once on a given hole.

Holes like three, four and six just beat guys like me to death.  Part of the problem is that moving to shorter tee doesn't necessarily make much difference.  On CH #4, for instance, from the white tees, I have to hit about eight iron to stay out of the ravine. But that leaves me almost 200-yard carry over another part of the ravine to get to the green.  So the only rational way for me to play the hole is to layup TWICE on a par four.

The tee shot at six is pretty close to my limit for a forced carry...unless I aim at the left portion of the fairway.  But then any ball that makes the carry is almost certain to end up in the left rough.  From where I have another carry of 180 yards, over the bunkers, off a sidehill, from thick rough. So... I should be laying up AGAIN, short and right.

It's just not a lot of fun.  I've played there once with some longer hitters, and they just don't face the problems I do. 

This doesn't make the course bad, just one I can't handle.

Compared to similar courses in the Southwest these prairie links courses have deep grass EVERYWHERE.  For instance, I love Southern Dunes in Maricopa, AZ even though I don't score much--if any--better than I do at Colbert and Firekeeper. 

OTOH, I've played Southern Dunes with one golf ball, Colbert usually gets at least six of them from me.

I often wonder what what effect it would have on your work if someone forced you to watch my group attempt to get around the course.  I know you've said that you've recently learned from good women golfers, for instance their dislike of any par fives much over the minimum length.

Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Brett_Morrissy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Firekeeper Photos, Brauer - Begay, Mayetta, KS - 5-26-13
« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2013, 12:14:42 AM »
Jason, thanks for the pics and writing.

I was under the (clearly false) impression that a wind sock type indication of direction of weather conditions was against the rules? they are an interesting addition, are they seen as a great benefit to members/players?

From a long distance, what are the differences to a standard flag?

cheers
@theflatsticker

Sam Morrow

Re: Firekeeper Photos, Brauer - Begay, Mayetta, KS - 5-26-13
« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2013, 12:31:18 AM »
I have not played Firekeeper but can vouch that Jeff has some wonderful work in Texas that often gets overlooked.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Firekeeper Photos, Brauer - Begay, Mayetta, KS - 5-26-13
« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2013, 09:25:29 AM »
Ken,

I will concur that since the design of CH in 2000 or so, I do pay more attention to all tees, although in rugged terrain, at that time, I was hesitant to move senior tees way up close to the forward tees, feeling it was condescending more than most players would want.  CH is so rugged it was sometimes hard.  Also, 4 is a unique hole.  It goes to show that limiting tee shot length, even naturally with that fall off, just never goes over well.  Even the longer good players complain at hitting less than driver on such a long par 4.  But, its what the land gave us, and we did fill in a gully as rough, but maybe it ought to be all fw, even if lower than the surrounding ground.   

Over the last ten years, I have heard more golfers like you, that just want their typical tees moved as far forward as possible, and many prefer a course that is 5750 to 6000.  That is a change.  My dad wouldn't drop below 6000 for any reason and that was literally 40 years ago, but now, golfers prefer playability to yardage on the card.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jason Hines

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Firekeeper Photos, Brauer - Begay, Mayetta, KS - 5-26-13
« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2013, 08:08:27 PM »
Thanks Jeff, is bent or zoysia more to maintain or does that all depend on climate, etc?  I look forward to going back, I sometimes miss the bent grass fairways in Nebraska.  (except of course when they are waterlogged)

Hi Brett,

Honestly, after the first couple of holes the novelty of the windsock wears off and in the end they functioned the same as regular golf flags to me.  On the Kansas prairie, both flags and windsocks are usually sticking straight out so I don’t think one has an advantage over the other.  Daryn and I knew we had a 2 club wind out of the south-southwest and off we went.

Jason

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