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Thomas Dai

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Course construction, Yee Olde style
« on: May 09, 2013, 07:17:06 AM »
I'm not sure which course this old photo of course construction work being undertaken is actually of, but IMO the photo beautifully indicates the sort of methods of construction that were adopted during the period when so many of our classic courses were built. Hard labour though.

Anyone care to share any similar course construction photos from the late 19th/early 20th century period?

All the best.


V. Kmetz

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Re: Course construction, Yee Olde style
« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2013, 08:32:33 AM »
I don't have "art" to accompany it, but this type of "horse n' scoop" labor remains part of the Winged Foot tradition in the story of the 13th hole on the West course, called "White Mule."

"Legend has it that Tillie's black aide-de-camp showed up with a white mule one day and hitched him up to his Fresno scoop.  Tillie asked, 'where did you get that, and why?' recognizing that the animal was an albino and noting that his assistant's usual morose mule was absent.  'It's my neighbor's mule.  mine came up lame this morning, so I borrowed him.  He's not much to look at, but he can sure work.' Tillie laughed and named the hole on the spot."

From:
"Winged Foot Story"
by Douglas LaRue Smith
- pg. 130

cheers

vk
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Ricardo Ramirez Calvo

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Re: Course construction, Yee Olde style
« Reply #2 on: May 09, 2013, 11:53:33 PM »
An image of the construction of a green at the Old Course of the Mar del Plata Golf Club in Argentina.



The camel used to bring sand from the beach to the bunkers of the course.

Ricardo

Ricardo Ramirez Calvo

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Re: Course construction, Yee Olde style
« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2013, 12:03:36 AM »
Construction at the University of Michigan golf course.



Bobby Jones driving at the 8th hole at Augusta National during construction. Mackenzie and other observe.


Ricardo

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Course construction, Yee Olde style
« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2013, 01:02:37 PM »
I always wondered what hitting shots like that accomplished during construction other than PR.  I mean, if that bunker on 8 at ANGC was 240 out and Jones knew he hits it 250 on the fly, he knows he carries it.  Maybe they weren't quite as scientific back then, and couldn't account for wind or elevation change without hitting a shot.  I also wonder if his distance was the same on dirt?

It's funny, but no modern architect has run a horse and scoop, or been on one when it hit a rock and flipped the operator over right into the horses behind.  So, no more horses on construction sites, but from time to time, you can sure still run into a horses ass......
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Course construction, Yee Olde style
« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2013, 03:16:13 PM »
I always wondered what hitting shots like that accomplished during construction other than PR. 

Jeff, I just made a fairly significant change to a hole based solely on hitting shots mid-construction... But I expect that to be more an exception rather than a rule for sure...

Thomas Dai

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Re: Course construction, Yee Olde style
« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2013, 06:11:58 AM »
I showed the photo I posted at the top of this thread, the old course construction photo of the men with the horse and drag pan, to some junior golfers and they immediate realised how courses were made years and years ago. As well as playing the game, these juniors are now pondering golf course architecture, which they weren't before. Photos can be inspirational.

All the best.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Course construction, Yee Olde style
« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2013, 07:31:21 AM »
Ally, I am sure it does happen, but like you, it is the exception rather than the rule for me.  If I am testing the aerial game, such as "how far can you carry" I am always reminded that 1) I (or pro) is in construction boots on dirt, affecting the swing, 2)I (or the pro) are just one or two data points which may or may not reflect reality, and 3) the weather will be unique that day (perhaps) and if humidity is high/low, wind is normal/not normal, etc. etc. etc. just what does hitting one shot, from one player, on one day really tell us for sure?

In short, while some would say its too "scientific" I would prefer to use what I do really know, as far as actual distance, elevation change (from topos, the eye can be fooled), prevailing wind speed and average direction, carry distance data from the PGA Tour (and maybe to represent the real players, Senior Tour) etc.

Similarly, I have never felt I could predict how a bump and run shot might play by bouncing one over a bunch of clay clods.....Ian Andrew had a blog recently about the slopes on a Redan, where he measured the slope of the green, the kick plate, etc to see what really worked in turf conditons (and even that can change from bent to bermudas, etc) that he will use on any future Redan, and that is where I start, too.  If 8% on bent worked last time, for instance, I would start there and modify if I know of some other conditions that might affect it.  Hitting a shot on dirt has no reflection on how it might play.

Melvyn, and some others would pine for "the old days" when things were done more by "feel" but I always ask myself if that is really the better way to go in all cases. At some point, all the artistry and design comes down to some little bit of science to convert things to sometimes very precise slope ranges to make things really work.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

archie_struthers

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Re: Course construction, Yee Olde style
« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2013, 07:54:38 AM »
 ??? ;D ;).

Jeff , I'd argue your point about "old style" , ala Jones , just a bit.  You can't get a feel for the shot required without being on the site and seeing the way it looks to the eye.  Otherwise why even show, just look at the typo and mail it in. I know you don't do it this way , or Ian , but it still seems the best courses had a lot of personal interaction between the designer and the ground, for whatever reason.   

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Course construction, Yee Olde style
« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2013, 09:18:02 AM »
Archie,

I didn't imply that I was never on the ground and just mailed it in.....I only hit a full golf shot in my office once, and that didn't turn out well.......

On site, sometimes things do look different, as in "Wow, that looks like a long carry."  I gather pros feel best testing it that way (although they always have an uncanny knack for knowing exactly how far a carry is) so mabye they hit shots.  For me, hitting some old driver (at $500 per copy, I sure ain't using my new one!) in construction boots, on dirt, etc. just doesn't tell me a thing. 

Did Bobby Jones really hit that shot as well as he might?  For that matter, given he was past his competitive prime by a few years, did it represent what others might do in the soon to be formed Masters?  Compare that to Fazio sending Tom Marzolf out to measure drives, carries, etc. of 100 Masters contestants for a full week a few years back.  Who had the better data points?  All I'm saying.

I would tend to measure it at whatever, including inside and outside edges if the hazard sits at an angle.  I add some for uphill or downhill, prevailing wind, elevation above sea level, etc.  If unusually cold or hot, that affects carry, too.  If I am working with a pro or good player, they usually work the same way these days....as in "my normal carry is 281 with nine yards of roll.  This is uphill 2% and its a 1:1 correlation, so my carry would only be 275.  The wind is about 15MPH and against and across from the left slightly, etc.  They would figure out what they were comfortable carrying, etc.

Now there is the old "doesn't fit my eye" situation, which is a little different.

It usually turns out right, unless they come out with the next gen ball a few weeks after my course opens, and it carries 20 yards further.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Bill_Yates

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Re: Course construction, Yee Olde style
« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2013, 11:21:25 AM »
I've argued this point many times on this site and I'll do it again.

What I believe in large part makes the old classic courses so magnificent is that the technology of the day (horses and drag pans) allowed the architect to sculpt the course from the natural site. Construction with heavy equipment and working with the land by hand yield two vastly different products.
Bill Yates
www.pacemanager.com 
"When you manage the pace of play, you manage the quality of golf."

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Course construction, Yee Olde style
« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2013, 03:57:51 PM »
Yes, the horse has certain patterns and the bulldozer has certain patterns, and often, the horses are more naturally attractive.  Also, slower, which some argue can help the artistic process.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Andrew Lewis

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Re: Course construction, Yee Olde style
« Reply #12 on: May 13, 2013, 04:52:02 PM »
I have always found myself entranced by the collection of course construction photos on display in the clubhouse at Yale.  Some involve horses; others do not.

You can view an interesting but not exhaustive collection at https://webspace.yale.edu/Yale-golf-history/galleries/construction-gallery/Webpages/gallery-01.html.

Thomas Dai

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Re: Course construction, Yee Olde style
« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2013, 04:26:35 AM »
Andrew - thanks for the great link.

Ricardo - super photos. In the photo with the camel, the man on the left in the white hat and two-tone shoes looks a bit like Henry Cotton, who I believe spent time before WWII in Argentina (didn't he marry Argentinian lady?).

More yee olde photos and web-links if you have them please. Also references to books that contain course construction photos from this period.

All the best

Ricardo Ramirez Calvo

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Re: Course construction, Yee Olde style
« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2013, 08:52:57 AM »
Thomas,

He does look very much like Henry Cotton and you are right that he was married to an Argentine lady, María Isabel Cotton, born in Córdoba. They both lived in Argentina for some time and particularly in Mar del Plata. I know that Henry Cotton used to play at the Old Course MPGC, where he won the Southern Open in 1930. I also heard that in one of his books he praises the Old Course, but I haven't read it myself. I'll try to find more information about the photo and see if I can confirm who the person is.

Ricardo