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Niall C

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Paul Lawrie/Graham Webster to redesign Whitekirk
« on: February 25, 2013, 02:25:17 PM »
In one of the local UK golf mags this month is a plash about Paul Lawrie (Graeme Webster) redesigning the Whitekirk course near North Berwick. I've played the course a number of tiems although not for a few years and thought it was a really good modern design played over some difficult terrain.

Anyone else played it and anyone know anything about the redesign ? The existing design is by Cameron Sinclair.

Niall

Greg Gilson

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Re: Paul Lawrie/Graham Webster to redesign Whitekirk
« Reply #1 on: February 25, 2013, 05:50:44 PM »
Hi Niall, we played it 10+ years ago but i remember it quite well. It is "difficult terrain" as you put it. The thing i liked about it was how different it was from the great links courses around it. I'm not suggesting skipping a round at Muirfield or North Berwick...or Gullane #1 or Dunbar...but it made a nice change. Sort of like a pizza after eating Indian for 2 weeks! Thats presumably the first time HCEG has been compared to a Vindaloo.

It will be interesting to see what changes are implemented - i assume reduction in the number of sidehill lies?

Carl Johnson

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Re: Paul Lawrie/Graham Webster to redesign Whitekirk
« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2013, 12:03:17 PM »
In one of the local UK golf mags this month is a plash about Paul Lawrie (Graeme Webster) redesigning the Whitekirk course near North Berwick. I've played the course a number of tiems although not for a few years and thought it was a really good modern design played over some difficult terrain.

Anyone else played it and anyone know anything about the redesign ? The existing design is by Cameron Sinclair.

Niall

Four of us played it about five years ago on a golf holiday to Scotland - from the USA.  After booking the usual suspects in the that area - the ones we could get on - I suggested this course as a "fill-in."  The condition of the course was not great, but not terrible either.  Niall, I would agree with you.  I liked the course myself, though my companions, who are much more skilled players than I am, were not as happy with it as I was.  In part, I think their problem was that it was not a links or links-style course, which they seemed to view as the only reason to travel to Scotland for golf (not the case with me).  At this point I cannot remember the course details well enough to have any sort of an opinion about how where redesign efforts would pay off.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Paul Lawrie/Graham Webster to redesign Whitekirk
« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2013, 02:25:45 PM »
Greg

I know at one point the owners were contemplating a second course down on the flatter fields to the south (?) however can't see how they could incorporate that into the routing.Despite playing over and around a hill, the first couple of holes are the only ones that I recall having any serious amount of sidehill lies. The other holes were either relatively flat or downhill/uphill.

Carl

Conditioning was an issue early on from what I recall and remember playing it once when the course was in pretty poor shape. I suspect the conditioning issue was due to lack of experience (the owners are fairly hands-on from what I recall) rather than lack of expenditure. Overall, I kind of agree with your friends assessments in that its not one I would necessarily recommend anyone travelling to this country to play but quite happy to play it myself.

Niall

Greg Gilson

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Re: Paul Lawrie/Graham Webster to redesign Whitekirk
« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2013, 03:27:27 PM »
Yes Niall. It'll be interesting to see what they do with the layout. I'd be keen to hear in due course if you have a chance.

Dónal Ó Ceallaigh

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Re: Paul Lawrie/Graham Webster to redesign Whitekirk
« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2013, 03:35:16 PM »
Jim Finegan was very complimentary of the course in his book "Blasted Heaths & Blessed Greens" where he wrote of "spirited greens",  a "marvelous naturalness" as well as a few blind and semi-blind shots.

He highlighted the 5th as one that can "claim greatness."

Anybody know more of the architect Cameron Sinclair? A Scot infact!

Mark_Rowlinson

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Niall C

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Re: Paul Lawrie/Graham Webster to redesign Whitekirk
« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2013, 10:01:09 AM »
Donal

I loosely know Cameron although not at all well. His younger brother was one of my eldest brothers best mates, my parents were pals with his parents, members of the same club etc. Looking at the list of the courses he's worked on that Mark provided a link to, I see I've played a few of the Scottish ones all of which were well designed, IM(totally unbiased)O.

Niall

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Paul Lawrie/Graham Webster to redesign Whitekirk
« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2013, 10:07:18 AM »
Let me qualify my last post. I note on his resume he lists the Jubilee and the Eden as two courses he's worked on. I'd be interested to know what he did. For instance, was he involved in the new holes on the Eden that Donald Steel regularly gets abuse for, or was he involved in the work to try to improve those holes ? Likewise with the Jubilee, I wonder what his input was ?

Anyone know ?

Niall

Carl Johnson

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Re: Paul Lawrie/Graham Webster to redesign Whitekirk
« Reply #9 on: March 02, 2013, 10:33:20 AM »
. . . .

Carl

Conditioning was an issue early on from what I recall and remember playing it once when the course was in pretty poor shape. I suspect the conditioning issue was due to lack of experience (the owners are fairly hands-on from what I recall) rather than lack of expenditure. Overall, I kind of agree with your friends assessments in that its not one I would necessarily recommend anyone travelling to this country to play but quite happy to play it myself.

Niall

Somewhat off the main topic, but on the subject of traveling from the USA to the British Isles for golf.  Although my friends and I generally make the trip to play classic (or otherwise) links courses, I like to push in a non-links course in the middle (or so) of the trip for several reasons.  Whitekirk fit that bill in the East Lothian / Berwick area.  Of course, it gives one a different kind of golf, for variety, and always an interesting way to see the different ways local players enjoy the game.  Malone in Belfast and Belleisle in Ayrshire have also served that purpose well.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Paul Lawrie/Graham Webster to redesign Whitekirk
« Reply #10 on: March 02, 2013, 11:18:13 AM »
Carl

I quite agree. Playing only links courses misses a trick. I've played those other two you mention and asgree they afford some really good golf.

Niall

Simon Holt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Paul Lawrie/Graham Webster to redesign Whitekirk
« Reply #11 on: March 02, 2013, 01:18:17 PM »
Hi Carl,

Next time use Longniddry as your filler if you are looking for something that wouldn't classify as pure links.  It has some cool greens and nice bunkering.  Colt, I believe.

Now, as for Whitekirk, I'm not one for using another man's scoring system so I will give it a Holt -1.  Classified as never playing a course with a trigonometry point.  I'm sorry gents; its poor.  Maybe 3 passable holes in a very tough neighbourhood.  Winterfield is better and that would be a Holt 1.  Purely based on the fact it has a couple of 'nice' holes and they serve good bacon rolls.

Its fortunate I'm in a good mood or my appraisal would be worse. ;)

In my dozen or so rounds there I have always had fun but its not for the GCA enthusiast.  I actually played there one week after it opened back in the 90s as a teenager.  Good carvery on a Sunday!  Great staff.

Talking of non-links in East Lothian/Scotland I'm off for a knock at Royal Musselburgh tomorrow.....no one is missing much there either.
2011 highlights- Royal Aberdeen, Loch Lomond, Moray Old, NGLA (always a pleasure), Muirfield Village, Saucon Valley, watching the new holes coming along at The Renaissance Club.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Paul Lawrie/Graham Webster to redesign Whitekirk
« Reply #12 on: March 02, 2013, 01:31:10 PM »
Simon:

Have you ever played at Peebles or Hawick?  I have not got up there, but for some reason an old account I read of one of them has me thinking that they would be good choices for a day away from the links within shouting distance of East Lothian.

I did drive into Whitekirk years ago to have a peek around, but only looked at a few holes before leaving ... the weather was poor and the golf course quite crowded, and the course seemed very tightly bunched together around the clubhouse, so there was no safe place to walk without being in the way.  The sharp dogleg hole by the driveway on the way in did not look too appealing, though.

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Paul Lawrie/Graham Webster to redesign Whitekirk
« Reply #13 on: March 02, 2013, 01:53:32 PM »
Simon,

Funny you mention Winterfield. It must have one of the hardest opening hole in golf. Bit of  strange course but could be quite a bit better with a bit of work. Whitekirk is one of those courses that had quite a lot of hype when it opened and is not bad but is up against stiff competition.

Longniddry is well worth a go as you suggest.

Jon

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Paul Lawrie/Graham Webster to redesign Whitekirk
« Reply #14 on: March 03, 2013, 09:49:53 AM »
Simon

Admittedly I could get some level of enjoyment playing over a ploughed field however -1 on the Holt scale seems a bit harsh. I suspect it was the change in altitude from North Berwick West to the heights of Whitekirk that effected your judgement  ;D.

BTW, do you know what they are planning to do ?

Niall

Simon Holt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Paul Lawrie/Graham Webster to redesign Whitekirk
« Reply #15 on: March 04, 2013, 06:44:26 AM »
Tom:

Interesting.  I might go and check them out this week as I haven't played either.

Jon:

Winterfield has both the hardest and worst opening hole in golf.  Having said that I can think of another par 3 over a huge chasm that gets rave reviews...  They have lots of VERY long par 3s so the par of the course is low but scoring in relation to par is not.  I once incurred the wrath of the opposition junior convenor when I was 17.  I made a pretty cheeky comment about what I thought of the place on the 1st tee.  I've matured a little.....

12 is a half decent hole with an interesting green.  Little left to right dog-leg along along the side of a ridge, then a long narrow green that falls away into the corner of the course.  14 is a good par 3 right out on the peninsula with cracking views and a good green site with a thought provoking mound infront.  15 is another half decent par 3 with the beach to the left and the green sited under a huge rock face.  Thats about it though.

I'm glad you are in agreement with Longniddry.  I think Longniddry, Kilspindie, Luffness New are interesting enough to class above 'filler' courses whenever you are in East Lothian for a decent amount of time.  The latter two being a truer form of links than the former.

Royal Musselburgh was actually better than I had remembered.  It does suffer from poor drainage that obviously muddied my memory of the place.  Pun fully intended.  The back 9 is interesting, with nice changes in elevation and some decent greens.  The history of the club itself dates back to 1774 which is reason enough to pop in if you have time on your hands in the area.  One of the trophies that dates back to the start of the club is thought to be the oldest competition in golf that is still played.

Niall:

Yes, a bit harsh.  Now that I think about it, 13 and 14 are fun holes.  That's yer lot though!  I heard the usual East Lothian whispers which I always take with a pinch of salt.  I'd be lying if I said I knew what was happening.

Craigielaw, which is better as a course, shares the same story as Whitekirk but with a better ending to said story due to location. 

Both courses were built when there was huge demand for golf memberships in East Lothian, with a lack of supply.  It would take 8 years to get into North Berwick, 11 to get into Gullane.  These golfers had no where to play so the memberships at Whitekirk and Craigielaw were snapped up by guys who wanted to be members indefinitely, or those that wanted somewhere to call home while they waited to get in somewhere else.  Now even the hardiest of NB and Gullane members have had to cut back the waiting times are down to 2-4 years at NB and about 5 years at Gullane.  People tend to get their names on the list and then ditch places like Whitekirk and Craigielaw when they get in.

Simon
2011 highlights- Royal Aberdeen, Loch Lomond, Moray Old, NGLA (always a pleasure), Muirfield Village, Saucon Valley, watching the new holes coming along at The Renaissance Club.

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Paul Lawrie/Graham Webster to redesign Whitekirk
« Reply #16 on: March 04, 2013, 03:48:17 PM »
Simon,

interesting you mention Craigielaw as I think if you want to see the difference small details make to the quality of a course constructions you can't find a much better example of it than standing on the 10th or 11th holes at Kilspindie and comparing it with Craigielaw.
Despite its lack of length I doubt there is a better example of what makes a good mambers course than Kilspindie. Craigielaw however shows the lack of an eye for detail in the lack of small movement in the fairway shaping that is all too typical on most modern courses.

Jon

Simon Holt

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Re: Paul Lawrie/Graham Webster to redesign Whitekirk
« Reply #17 on: March 04, 2013, 05:24:30 PM »
Jon

Agreed.  Cant post properly at the moment but will respond about Craigielaw v Kilspindie tomorrow.

Simon
2011 highlights- Royal Aberdeen, Loch Lomond, Moray Old, NGLA (always a pleasure), Muirfield Village, Saucon Valley, watching the new holes coming along at The Renaissance Club.

Simon Holt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Paul Lawrie/Graham Webster to redesign Whitekirk
« Reply #18 on: March 05, 2013, 06:05:23 AM »
Hi Jon,

I was actually a member at Craigielaw when it opened as they had a great deal for intermediates aged between 18-23.  I was a member for 2 years but I was in St. Andrews for Uni which meant caddying and golf all summer up there, so I rarely got home to play NB let alone Craigielaw.  Great staff and a fun membership.

The course itself is ok.  Very tough without the wind, let alone with it.  It always feels to me like they scraped all the soil from the fairways to make the mounding in the rough.  I'm sure thats not the case but you are right that there is very little movement in the fairways but movement at the sides.  The greens are also far to penal for my liking.  You rarely feel like you are attacking them at the correct angle; very shallow but reasonably wide in most case, carrying bunkers at the immediate green side with no chance of holding the greens with anything more than a short iron.

Kilspindie is the quirky and gentle antitheses of Craigielaw.  Lots of fun par 3s, a stand out short par 4 at the 4th, some drivable 4s and a few cracking green sites.  Lovely quant clubhouse that casts shadows over both the first tee and 18th green.  Happy days for about £40 a round!

Simon
2011 highlights- Royal Aberdeen, Loch Lomond, Moray Old, NGLA (always a pleasure), Muirfield Village, Saucon Valley, watching the new holes coming along at The Renaissance Club.

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