[Joey Chase]

How could it be improved?  After 16 exciting holes, it's too bad the last two finish on uninspired land.  Is there anything that the club could do, or want to do?

[Frank Pont]

As a long time Machrihanish member this is a question I have pondered many times. The straightforward solution would be to combine 17 and 18, which are both par 4's, into a par 5 and find a spot between the existing holes in the majestic dunes to insert a par 3 hole. I have found a number of spots where that can easily be done with minimal earthmoving and shaping. The problem is that the last hole would either be too long a par 5, or you would have to move the tees of the high point. Another option would be to move the 18th green closer to the beach and create a shared fairway with 1, but that obviously has big logistical issues, plus I personally like the 18th green. Maybe the best solution, and the least realistic, would be to move the clubhouse to the current 9th green......

[Neil Regan]

Frank,

  I'm sure you know that the 18th used to finish near the road and 1st tee, at about 420 yards.
That road is still quiet enough that maybe a green could be rebuilt in that area.

[Adam Lawrence]

Like Frank, I have spent a fair while thinking about this (I'm not a Machrihanish member, but it's my favourite course anywhere), and I share his view that the most practical solution is to combine the last two holes into a par five, and make a new hole out in the dunes.

I am not desperately concerned about balance, but one thing that does strike me is that if the new par three came before the existing ninth in the routing, you would have a front nine of around 3100 yards, par 34, and a back nine of close to 3600, par 36, with three threes, three fours and three fives, while if it fell after the ninth, the back nine would have only two par fours!

It's remarkable, at first sight, how many links have either fairly plain (I won't say dull) opening or finishing holes, or both. I thought about this a while too, and in the end it is not so surprising - roads and settlements tend to be on the flatter land, not the dunes, and thus the course had to start and finish where there was access.

[Sean_A]

I think its more than the last two holes which let the back 9 down at Machrihanish (I am not sold on the back to back 3s either with 16 being quite dull), but then with that all-world front nine most back nines pale in comparison. 

If the last two holes are made into a par 5 and a par 3 is added, doesn't that leave four 3s in eight holes?  That is a tough sell unless none are duds and at least three are excellent.  I think for this plan to work well the 16th would need some work.

Ciao

[Simon Holt]

I'd always be one to leave it how it is, even though I completely agree that the finish flatters to deceive.  I'm with Sean that 16 is nothing to write home about either.

If we are talking hypothetically, why not have a par 5 from somewhere on 16 to 17 green and leave 18 alone.  Then fit a par 3 in somewhere as suggested.

If you could find teeing area on 16 that makes the drive to the edge of the drop off on 17 not too challenging, then what is effectively the tee shot on 17 now, would make a cool second shot for a par 5.   My memory might be failing me though, to get over the burn on your 'second' shot on my suggested par 5 might be too challenging.  Having said that I'm sure I remember 17 being driver, wedge or something like that.

Slaughter me, someone.  I can take it

[ward peyronnin]

One can make a similar observation at another sporty and very pleasing links: Panmure.

While their opening holes really understate some of the great holes which follow the closing holes are enhanced by the introduction of cops. Perhaps machrihanishes holes could be similarly treated ?

This perhaps begs its own thread. When are cops appropriate. At Hoylake they seem to be related to the horse use formerly found on the property I supposed but I've always appreciated their usefulness on flat ground

[ward peyronnin]

I have played Dunbar and it does become magical around the tower and out on the headland. There must be someways to bring it home in a better fashion.

[Phil McDade]

I don't necessarily think 18 is a poor hole -- shortish, with a chance to drive the green, but some trouble lurking, and for conventional play a sometimes tricky pitch to the green. 17 is just dull, and unlike much of the rest of the course.

Sean -- you're missing the subtleties of Machrihanish's sublime back 9; some wonderful green sites there.

[Dave McCollum]

Nothing to add to the discussion.  Indulge me a wee tale of a fond memory from long ago.

The main thing I remember about the finish is a foreboding that began walking up the first hole and stayed in the back of my mind all the way through the turn inland by those old landing markers.  The breeze and rain were howling off the Irish Sea.  It wasn’t too bad going out and the golf was a joy, but I kept thinking that there was going to be a gigantic “balloon” payment due when we turned for the house (and into an imagined viscous headwind).  For reasons I’ll never understand, it never came.  Starting off as a single, I’d joined up with a local a few holes into the front and was enjoying trying to keep up with a good player (young guy, constable as I remember).  So, expecting to pump my remaining ammo supply into the shaggy dunes on the way home, instead, we had a pleasant time chatting and playing in.  I didn’t really notice a letdown in the challenge of the test given the relief that I felt in just being able to complete our friendly little match.

What struck me about the round was the brilliance of routing in those conditions.  I’d joined up with the other single when we were waiting on the tee for the only other group on the course.  They waved us through and we were off to the races.  Funny, how that works out sometimes.  Not the course, per se, but the emotions, expectations, and anticipations of the game.  

[Eric Smith]

I don't necessarily think 18 is a poor hole -- shortish, with a chance to drive the green, but some trouble lurking, and for conventional play a sometimes tricky pitch to the green. 17 is just dull, and unlike much of the rest of the course.

+1

The first, sharing the same open field as the eighteenth, gets to be called the world's greatest opener just because an ocean happens to border it. Not fair!! 

[Adam Lawrence]

I don't necessarily think 18 is a poor hole -- shortish, with a chance to drive the green, but some trouble lurking, and for conventional play a sometimes tricky pitch to the green. 17 is just dull, and unlike much of the rest of the course.

+1

The first, sharing the same open field as the eighteenth, gets to be called the world's greatest opener just because an ocean happens to border it. Not fair!! 

I think this is a good point. I've said before on here I think that I believe the first is overrated. Tee shot awesome, but once you're in the fairway I don't see a whole lot going on. Machrihanish, to me, is really about what happens between 2 green and 17 tee.

[Eric Smith]

I don't necessarily think 18 is a poor hole -- shortish, with a chance to drive the green, but some trouble lurking, and for conventional play a sometimes tricky pitch to the green. 17 is just dull, and unlike much of the rest of the course.

+1

The first, sharing the same open field as the eighteenth, gets to be called the world's greatest opener just because an ocean happens to border it. Not fair!! 

I think this is a good point. I've said before on here I think that I believe the first is overrated. Tee shot awesome, but once you're in the fairway I don't see a whole lot going on. Machrihanish, to me, is really about what happens between 2 green and 17 tee.

Yes sir, the drive at the first is everything it's cracked up to be, but the shot up over the rise to the second green is equally memorable in my mind. I look at the first tee shot as sort of the 'introduction', if you will, with the second shot at 2 more suited towards 'chapter 1, first paragraph' in the great mystery of what is out there?, amongst the dunes. I'll never forget the smiles and shared adulation when we got to this green and saw all that is going on within it. One can't help but be excited about it and everything else that just opened up into view.

[Frank Pont]

If the last two holes are made into a par 5 and a par 3 is added, doesn't that leave four 3s in eight holes?  That is a tough sell unless none are duds and at least three are excellent.  I think for this plan to work well the 16th would need some work.

Ciao

Sean, who said the new par 3 would be in the back nine? The locations I had spotted were almost all in the front nine.....

[Frank Pont]

I think its more than the last two holes which let the back 9 down at Machrihanish (I am not sold on the back to back 3s either with 16 being quite dull), but then with that all-world front nine most back nines pale in comparison.  

Ciao

Interesting, I quite like the sequence of 15 and 16, and like the green of 16....

[Frank Pont]

I don't necessarily think 18 is a poor hole -- shortish, with a chance to drive the green, but some trouble lurking, and for conventional play a sometimes tricky pitch to the green. 17 is just dull, and unlike much of the rest of the course.

Sean -- you're missing the subtleties of Machrihanish's sublime back 9; some wonderful green sites there.

Agree, 17 is the weakest link. Also agree that the best greens are in the back nine, whereas the best land and holes are in the front nine.

[Frank Pont]

I don't necessarily think 18 is a poor hole -- shortish, with a chance to drive the green, but some trouble lurking, and for conventional play a sometimes tricky pitch to the green. 17 is just dull, and unlike much of the rest of the course.

+1

The first, sharing the same open field as the eighteenth, gets to be called the world's greatest opener just because an ocean happens to border it. Not fair!! 

I think this is a good point. I've said before on here I think that I believe the first is overrated. Tee shot awesome, but once you're in the fairway I don't see a whole lot going on. Machrihanish, to me, is really about what happens between 2 green and 17 tee.

Adam,

You are right about 2 to 17.

But I do think even the first green is quite good, I will try to get a picture of it posted tomorrow.

[Marty Bonnar]

We'll be there a week tomorrow so I'd be happy to add some up to date pics. I'd tend to agree that the final hole or two are weak compared to the rest of the course, but it's really nitpicking as the place is beyond magical otherwise. Mach dunes next door now brings a marvellous opportunity to compare old and new design and construction methods over the course of a hugely fun weekend. The accoms are so good too...

F.

[Colin Macqueen]

Marty,

As Dave McCollum writes ... "when we turned for the house (and into an imagined viscous headwind)." you must beware of inclement conditions.
I am still wondering if Dave misspelt on purpose because it probably describes the wind pretty accurately or is he just channeling the Goodales of this world!

Cheers Colin

[Marty Bonnar]

Col,
As I recall the time we played mach with Dr and Mrs Redan, it utterly heaved it down with righteous viscosity for a couple of holes out there at the twelfth. That Westerly is a right corker!
Maybe next weekend will be calm and gentle... :-)

F.

[Dave McCollum]

Not sure whether it was on purpose or Professor Freud.  Passed the ear test either way.  What I’ve always wondered was the wind perfectly across the line of play?  It seemed like it was helping going out but not hurting coming home.  A mystery I attributed to genius routing.

[Tom_Doak]

I think this is a good point. I've said before on here I think that I believe the first is overrated. Tee shot awesome, but once you're in the fairway I don't see a whole lot going on. Machrihanish, to me, is really about what happens between 2 green and 17 tee.

Exactly as it should be, for any course which focuses more on match play than stroke play.

Although, as one of the people who overrates the first hole, I happen to think it makes an excellent 19th.

[Frank Pont]

Tom makes an interesting point. I indeed always play matchplay with my friends when at M, and especially 17 with the OB on the left is a let down at that point of the round. However the driveable 18th is a lot of fun from a matchplay point of view.

[Chris DeNigris]

I think this is a good point. I've said before on here I think that I believe the first is overrated. Tee shot awesome, but once you're in the fairway I don't see a whole lot going on. Machrihanish, to me, is really about what happens between 2 green and 17 tee.

Exactly as it should be, for any course which focuses more on match play than stroke play.

Although, as one of the people who overrates the first hole, I happen to think it makes an excellent 19th.

Tom- I know you like the course but it's not surprising you'd find the starter a bit underwhelming, given your emphasis on intriguing greensites.

I still think it's one of the coolest 1st holes I've ever played even given the hype. The feeling you get standing on that teebox after driving to the tip of nowhere and exiting that modest little proshop- knowing that one of the great classics awaits you over those dunes...is tough to beat.

Visually intimidating and exhilarating- yet really quite simple, the first shot gets you pumped in a way not too many others can. The fact that the rest of the hole is rather benign doesn't diminish it's effect for me. I kinda like the subtlety of the 2nd part of the hole.

[Niall C]

Adam

I first played Machrihanish back in the days when metal woods were still a relatively new advent to the game, and standing on that first tee with a much smaller head driver than we have now was quite intimidating. Not sure of how much of the corner to try and cut I recall playing safe over to the right and leaving myself a five iron to a right hand pin. Hitting a 5 iron I was looking to land it short and just where I was looking to land the ball was a small depression which made it difficult to judge how the ball was going to react in landing ie. huitting the upslope or hitting the downslope.

Roll on to the next time I played there, I'm standing on the first tee with a modern big headed driver wondering what my concerns were all those years before. Not only is the tee shot far less intimidating, in other words much easier in that the line is now unlikely to be anything other than a direct one, but also the second shot is likely to be a short to medium iron to land on the green.

Still a visually stimulating hole but I tend to think that it no longer plays anything like the way it did when it had the reputation of being one of the best opening holes in the world.

Niall

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