[Patrick_Mucci]

in your ability to recover  from a greenside bunker ?

If a bunker slope from the bunker floor to the perimeter of the green is almost vertical, does that make for an easier bunker shot if you're not right up against the slope ?

Or, does a bunker slope, that's extended at a much lower angle, which feeds near misses a considerable distance from the green, make for a more difficult bunker shot ?

At what distance do you feel uncomfortable hitting a recovery from a greenside bunker ?

15 feet ?
30 feet ?
45 feet ?
60 feet ?
More ?

[Tommy Williamsen]

If I have a flat lie and have 15 or 30 feet to the hole I expect to get it up and down 75% of the time.  If I am on a severe upslope I feel comfortable at 15 feet but tend to leave it short on anything much longer.  I don't mind a ball on a little downhill lie from 30 feet or longer but am uncomfortable at 15 feet. What I don't like  is a ball significantly below my feet. The heel tends to dig in the sand.

[Sean_A]

If I have a flat lie and have 15 or 30 feet to the hole I expect to get it up and down 75% of the time. 

Tommy - do you come close go meeting your expectations?  If so, you must be playing from VERY easy bunkers to VERY flat greens.  Thats an incredible recovery rate for pro let alone a handicap golfer.

Ciao

[Bill_McBride]

If I have a flat lie and have 15 or 30 feet to the hole I expect to get it up and down 75% of the time. 

Tommy - do you come close go meeting your expectations?  If so, you must be playing from VERY easy bunkers to VERY flat greens.  Thats an incredible recovery rate for pro let alone a handicap golfer.

Ciao

I think Tommy gets some divine assistance!   

[Patrick_Mucci]

Distance from the green, as produced by the slope, is the architectural question.

Does the angle of the slope, which takes the ball further from the green, have a dramatic impact on the ability to recover ?

[Mark Pearce]

If your ball is 12 inches from the face of a near vertical bunker face, which happens all too frequently in bunkers on links courses, then the answer, clearly, is yes and not just because of distance from the green.

[JESII]

Pat, as a relatively poor bunker player...yes everything matters but there's a lot more to it than simply proximity to the greens edge.

Flat lie helps - everything else hurts in varying degrees
Slope of the greenmatters
Obviously height of the lip matters

I'd think the architect would build the bunker slope with several other factors in mind, but that creating an ideal angle to take the ball a certain distance from the green would low on the list.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat, as a relatively poor bunker player...yes everything matters but there's a lot more to it than simply proximity to the greens edge.

Flat lie helps - everything else hurts in varying degrees
Slope of the greenmatters
Obviously height of the lip matters

I'd think the architect would build the bunker slope with several other factors in mind, but that creating an ideal angle to take the ball a certain distance from the green would low on the list.

Jim,

If you've played Seminole you'd think that Ross made it a high priority

[JESII]

Why? Don?t you think the bunkers with long slopes happen to be the bunkers built into a hillside?

[Mike McGuire]

The longer the bunker shot the harder. But the ones with a gradual slope dont look as good (grass faced ones).

I like steeper faced slopes on bunkers, they look better tucked up tight to the green.

On a steep slope the ball has trouble hanging up on the grass, which is also good because you dont want players having to walk on that slope to get to the ball. Better the ball gets down in the bunker.

Steep faced bunkers also force the player out the low side. You dont want them climbing up the slope to get on the green.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Why? Don?t you think the bunkers with long slopes happen to be the bunkers built into a hillside?

Jim,

Certainly the longer slopes are on the hillsides, but long slopes exist on non-hillside greens.

Ross's unique combination of a convex slope and a concave bunker takes the ball further from the green making the bunker recovery shot far more difficult

[Carl Johnson]

The bunkers I play day in and day out at my club have virtually flat bottoms, with a very slight rise in the sand on green side, followed by fairly steep, grass slopes up to the green.  If your approach lands on the grass face of the bunker, and falls back into the bunker, you can be so close to the grass face that recovery is very difficult.  The same result if your approach rolls into the bunker with some speed - it moves right up to the face.  In short, it is always better to be back, away from the grass face, the further the better, in this recreational player's view . . . for example, 10 to 15 feet rather than one foot.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Carl,

At what distance from the putting surface and the hole do you become uncomfortable with a bunker shot ?

The closer I am the more comfortable I feel, no matter how steep the slope.

[Mark McKeever]

The loser I am

??

I hope you mean closer.   

[Carl Johnson]

Carl,

At what distance from the putting surface and the hole do you become uncomfortable with a bunker shot ?

The loser I am the more comfortable I feel, no matter how steep the slope.

Pat, I am not a skilllful player, although I do think my bunker play is one of the best parts of my game.  I'd say maybe beyond 30 feet I become less comfortable.  Take a look at some of our greenside bunkers, http://www.flickr.com/photos/eko_gfl/sets/72157608575550343/show/.
Click on "show info" in upper right corner for hole identification.  Admittedly, the photos can't substitute for being in some of these babies up close to the face.  Also, I realize that these may not be exactly the style of bunker you're thinking about generally.

[Troy Fink]

Pat,

When in a bunker, I fell like the farther away I am from the hole the harder it is.  My main goal on a green side bunker shot is to get it on the green.  The less sand I have to carry the more room for error I have.  Getting the ball close to the hole is a secondary goal for me.  If I have to carry more than 20' of sand, then the shot becomes very difficult for me.

This has probably been talked about before, but when I watched the President's Cup at Royal Melbourne, those bunkers looked like they were designed and maintained to shed your ball away from the green all the way down to the bottom slope.  It looked like a ball could miss the green by a few feet and carom away by 20 or 30'.  Not only did it look like the ball was far away from the green, the depth of the bunker looked intimidating, too.

Is this the concept you are getting at?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Troy,

Yes to a degree.

The bunkers at Seminole perform a similar function, marginal misses end up substantially further from the point where they impacted.

The removal of the ball from the impact point is a function of the slope and bunker configuration, but, mostly the bunker slope.

Given the choice of a steep bunker face and a 15 foot bunker shot and a gradual bunker face and a 45 foot bunker shot, I'll take the 15 footer almost every day.

Both instances almost mandate an elevated green or sandy soil that will accomodate bunker depth

[Michael George]

Pat:

In general, I think longer green side bunker shots are harder than steeper shots.  So 60 feet would be my answer.   However I think most of what I would consider "great green side bunkers" have been on the steeper side than far side. For example, if you ever play Kirtland CC, you remember the bunkering and the 2 deep green side bunkers at #15 and 17 really stand out. See Ran's write-up for pictures.

That being said, my favorite course that I have played, Sand Hills seemed to combine length with steepness. Like that bunkers left of #4 and #7.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Michael,

I think Sand Hills has a scale that's almost unmatched in golf, sort of a golf course on steroids.

The bunkers are massive, not unlike BPB, so I think you have to differentiate between courses like Sand Hills, with that enormous scale, from what I'd consider "local" courses, even if those local courses are top 100

[Tommy Williamsen]

If I have a flat lie and have 15 or 30 feet to the hole I expect to get it up and down 75% of the time. 

Tommy - do you come close go meeting your expectations?  If so, you must be playing from VERY easy bunkers to VERY flat greens.  Thats an incredible recovery rate for pro let alone a handicap golfer.

Ciao

I think Tommy gets some divine assistance!   

I learned a long time ago that God does not play golf.  I practice the short game a lot and love bunkers.  I feel confident of short bunker shots.  Longer ones are different.  I probably practice the short game almost as much as I play.  I have always like the creativity that goes into shots inside 20 yards.

[Paul Gray]

Thanks Tommy. You've just inadvertently guilt tripped at least one single digit GCAer into working on his short game! I can only dream of a 75% sand save rate.

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