Tell me about Hell's Half Acre - PVGC #7

[archie_struthers]

   >:

Christian , most people are thirty to fifty yards short of the "acre" after the tee shot . Lots of strong players hit hybrid to lay up from the daily tees. For others a 230 yard drive leaves them with 160-170 to carry.  The carry isn't much different on either side, though the bunker lip is higher on the right. The left side looks easier to carry , but there is less room there.

You really want to get a short , short iron in your hand here , so most of the time you are hitting a long iron or hybrid to get closer to the green on your second.  The catch is that shove it a little right and some trees will block you and pulls quickly find some gnarly gorse. Plenty of room , just don't duff it .  Like all the greens at Pine Valley , you need to think where you want to putt from . Dead center is always smart , but many of the greens are three clubs different  from back to front . A good caddy will advise you how far it is to the optimal section of green, and which way the green slopes. #7 is one of the easier reads on the course, but speed is really hard to gauge without experience.

[Ronald Montesano]

"I should remind all that George Crump actually said when he finished Pine Valley (which of course we all know he did not live long enough to do) his next project was to build a course right next to it just for woman. It is recorded that he had already interviewed and consulted with three time US Amateur champion Alexa Stirling for ideas on it and he had bought additional land at Pine Valley for this very purpose."

FROM http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php?topic=38105.0;wap2

Also http://www.jcs-group.com/golf/design/building.html

[Mark McKeever]

From our lurker:   

Dr Carr:
"He intended to complete the new teeing place to the right of the present tee, to place a large bunker on what is now fairway to the left in line with and close to the 9th tee. Then beyond the large bunker that stretches across the course to make a new fairway where there is now rough. At least one half of the present fairway on the left beyond the large bunker to be turned into a bare sand hazard. This second shot was one of the surest determinations as finally intended to be done. He wanted a miniature "Alps." The approach to the hole then is the longway of the green for which purpose he shaped it."
 
 
 
W.P. Smith---9/15/17:
"G.A.C. intended to complete to suit new tee and direction of green, viz., by making a double dog leg. Will place bunker at left opposite 9th tee, and all native pine trees to remain at right of driving fairway but three or four in big bunker at right to be cut down, also one or two beyond bunker at right. Fairway on left beyond bunker to be moved to the right so that only about 15 feet of fairway shows to the left of cop. New rough on left to be sand with lime and seashore grass."

[Ronald Montesano]

Is this it?

[JESII]

Matches the descriptions pretty well Ron.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick I've never seen a 20 and the worst I've ever made in a strokeplay match was a 12 I believe and that was on a 540 meter par 5 in windforce 7-8 from an elevated tee trying to hit a tiny fairway, 2nd shot steep uphill and blind, not making it due to the wind 3rd shot also blind, at least on that day and reloading 4 times off the tee.

David,

I think the lens is the culprit in making the hole less intimidating looking.

The lens tends to compress distance giving you the feel that the carry is anything but heroic.

It's a good carry.

Don't forget, long hitters don't want to get so close that their ball enters HHA on the drive.

And, that fairway isn't as wide as many of the others, so there's a tendency to "steer" the ball or not let out shaft, which in turn, causes you to have a longer carry.

A good drive makes the hole exponentially easier, but, that's easier said than done.
And, should you come off your second, disaster awaits.

It's a good birdie hole, but, it can ruin your round as well.

It doesn't look like that kind of hole, but it does look fun and exciting.

It's exciting, fun and challenging.
As I indicated, the drive is THE key shot.

[Patrick_Mucci]

How would the average woman play this hole?

Based on the average woman golfer that we have at Tavistock, it would go something like this...

They'd likely hit a tee shot, bunt their 2nd to the end of the first landing area or hit it as far as they could into HHA, then they would hope to get a decent lie, advance it further toward the green, likely still in the bunker, eventually chop it out into the 2nd fairway, bunt it up further up the 2nd fairway within 100 yards where they could then try to hit it on and hope for a two putt.

With no disrespect meant at all, I would think the average woman golfer would be thrilled to finish the hole in 8 shots and most would finish higher than that.  Without the ability to carry the ball over HHA consistently, any number is possible.

So is this poor architecture or simply a sexist design?

It's great architecture.

The course was intended to challenge the champion golfer with little regard for others.

The carries are heroic on most holes.

At one time it was rumored that prospective members had to have a certain level of proficiency/handicap since a lesser golfer would not fare well and hold up play.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Does anyone know if Marion Hollinsworth played at PV? This woman sounded highly skilled, I am recalling the creation of 16 CPC - and Raynor saying it was too long to carry and she teed it up and knocked it over the Pacific.

Seems to me she would have enjoyed the challenge of PVGC.

Brett,

I've always contended that that story is more myth than fact.

If you've ever played the hole from the back tee I think you'd agree, especially if you were playing with a ball and equipment from 1928

[Brett_Morrissy]

Pat, do you know if she played at PVGC?

I have only walked CPC, and no I cannot imagine trying to hit a hickory driver over that chasm!

[Mark McKeever]

From our lurker regarding female play at PV:

Jamie:
 

Regarding your discussion on how women might fare at Pine Valley, there are a few interesting examples of it I'm aware of. Perhaps the most interesting involves a remarkable match that took place there in 1923 between nine of some of the best lady amateurs in America (they all apparently came down in a group from just playing in the US Amateur in Rye, NY) against a somewhat comparable contingent of nine top men amateurs (including some US Amateur champions).*
 
 
 
The only other examples of ladies there I'm aware of is my old friend Carol Semple Thompson and then not that long ago a round there by Annika Sorenstam (John Ott walked apparently the whole way with her. He told me he felt she basically did not really miss a single shot).
 
 
*This particular match does have some really interesting trivia significance involving Max Marston. According to Jim Finegan, Marston's competitive run in 1923 is arguably the most impressive in a single year in the entire history of golf. He apparently did not lose a match or perhaps even a tournament the entire year (including the US Amateur and the Walker Cup and a whole lot of other stuff in between). But in this particular Pine Valley match against the women he did lose to Edith Cummings (she was the current US Amateur champion). However, at this "feminist" match at Pine Valley all the men gave all the women seven shots to be applied in the matches using the "bisque" procedure (apply the strokes on a selective basis through the match). By the way, Edith Cummings was known then as the prettiest woman to walk fairways and she was also the inspiration for the controversial Jordan Baker in F. Scott Fitzgerald's wonderful novel, The Great Gatsby. Finegan reported that even though she was Marston's opponent at PV that day that he actually coached her around the course because she had never been there before. She beat Marston 2 and 1. Alexa Stirling halved her match and all the other ladies lost theirs.
 
 Someone asked if Marion Hollins ever played PV. I am not aware she ever did but she probably played NGLA more than any other lady of her time (her father was a prominent member).