Texas, the Lonestar State

[Sam Morrow]

Pat,

 I don't mind, if people don't like the golf here because they think our courses are lacking that's fine with me, I don't agree. Like I said, more golf for us. I think there are plenty of courses here in that range of good plus but not quite great. What courses have you played in Texas that disappointed you?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

 I don't mind, if people don't like the golf here because they think our courses are lacking that's fine with me, I don't agree. Like I said, more golf for us. I think there are plenty of courses here in that range of good plus but not quite great. What courses have you played in Texas that disappointed you?

It's not an issue of not liking the courses or disappointment.

It's an issue of the lack of HIGH quality courses in a well to do, well populated state.

You're taking it personally, in an almost childlike vane.
It's merely a discussion about the lack of great courses in your neck of the woods.

Brookhollow  and Preston Trails are nice courses, as is Champions, the question is, why weren't there great courses in abundance ?

P.S.   My uncle lived in the Houston area for decades and was a good golfer, so i have nothing against golf in Texas. 

[Greg Clark]

Whenever I read a thread about golf course architecture from those outside the state I wonder how many of these courses they have played:

Dallas National
Whispering Pines
Spanish Oaks
Austin Golf Club
Cordillera Ranch
Boot Ranch
Vaquero Club
Carlton Woods - Fazio
Carlton Woods - Nicklaus
Briggs Ranch
Escondido
Miramont
Pine Dunes
Craig Ranch
The Rawls Course
Butterfield Trail

All of these courses have been built since 2000.  They are among the best the state has to offer, and I doubt many that criticize Texas architecture have played hardly any of them.  While none may be the equivalent of Sand Hills, the depth of quality courses built in recent years in the state is something that I think is missed on this site.  But, I agree with Sam - nothing to see here

[Sam Morrow]

Pat,

 I don't mind, if people don't like the golf here because they think our courses are lacking that's fine with me, I don't agree. Like I said, more golf for us. I think there are plenty of courses here in that range of good plus but not quite great. What courses have you played in Texas that disappointed you?

It's not an issue of not liking the courses or disappointment.

It's an issue of the lack of HIGH quality courses in a well to do, well populated state.

You're taking it personally, in an almost childlike vane.
It's merely a discussion about the lack of great courses in your neck of the woods.

Brookhollow  and Preston Trails are nice courses, as is Champions, the question is, why weren't there great courses in abundance ?

P.S.   My uncle lived in the Houston area for decades and was a good golfer, so i have nothing against golf in Texas. 

How am I being childlike? Like I said, if somebody doesn't wanna visit here and play golf fine, that's their deal. How many places really have great courses in abundance? I never said you had anything against golf in Texas, I asked where you'd played.

[Sam Morrow]

Whenever I read a thread about golf course architecture from those outside the state I wonder how many of these courses they have played:

Dallas National
Whispering Pines
Spanish Oaks
Austin Golf Club
Cordillera Ranch
Boot Ranch
Vaquero Club
Carlton Woods - Fazio
Carlton Woods - Nicklaus
Briggs Ranch
Escondido
Miramont
Pine Dunes
Craig Ranch
The Rawls Course
Butterfield Trail

All of these courses have been built since 2000.  They are among the best the state has to offer, and I doubt many that criticize Texas architecture have played hardly any of them.  While none may be the equivalent of Sand Hills, the depth of quality courses built in recent years in the state is something that I think is missed on this site.  But, I agree with Sam - nothing to see here

Nice list there Greg, good stuff. We're doing okay here.

[Sean_A]

Why the architectural void ?

I can hear it cranking up.  You Texans should pay no attention to Pat - he is a wind-up merchant looking to kill time.

Ciao

[Mark Chaplin]

I don't want to rain on your parade but I recently played golf in a sleepy little town where four courses just off the same road, within a mile of each other, that are better than any course in Texas.  Sorry 

I thought for a minute Pat you'd renewed your passport and jumped on a plane to Gullane, St Andrews, Virginia Water, Swinley Road Ascot, Deal/Sandwich, or Blackhourse Road, Woking 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Whenever I read a thread about golf course architecture from those outside the state I wonder how many of these courses they have played:

Greg,

On the 16 courses you listed, Could you provide the top 100 ranking for each course, classic or modern, to the right of it's name.
That would give us a better understanding with regard to how those courses are perceived.


Dallas National
Whispering Pines
Spanish Oaks
Austin Golf Club
Cordillera Ranch
Boot Ranch
Vaquero Club
Carlton Woods - Fazio
Carlton Woods - Nicklaus
Briggs Ranch
Escondido
Miramont
Pine Dunes
Craig Ranch
The Rawls Course
Butterfield Trail

All of these courses have been built since 2000.  They are among the best the state has to offer, and I doubt many that criticize Texas architecture have played hardly any of them.  While none may be the equivalent of Sand Hills, the depth of quality courses built in recent years in the state is something that I think is missed on this site.  But, I agree with Sam - nothing to see here

[Patrick_Mucci]

How am I being childlike? Like I said, if somebody doesn't wanna visit here and play golf fine, that's their deal.

Sam,

It's not about tourism, it's about WHY there aren't an abundance of great golf courses in Texas.

How many places really have great courses in abundance?

Places ?
We're talking about in all of 268,580 square miles.
That's a pretty big place, the second largest state in the union.
And the largest state in the continental U.S. by over 100,000 square miles.
What was it that Clara Peller used to ask ?


I never said you had anything against golf in Texas, I asked where you'd played.

I listed some courses for you

[mike_beene]

If Oakmont,which is one of my favorite courses,had been built in its exact form in Dallas in the 1920s and today was exactly Oakmont,and had perhaps hosted one US Open and even a tour event or A few USGA tournaments,where do you think it would be ranked?

[Sam Morrow]

If size is important why aren't there better courses in Alaska or Russia?

[Mike Nuzzo]

Greg
Aside from Austin GC I've played 8 of those and seen enough of the others to know that only Dallas National, Whispering Pines and Rawls are 7s.
The rest are 6s and LOWER.
Cheers

Pat
If a group of players favor the testing nature of the game as their favorite flavor, that is the flavor they will get.
As for passionate developers, I don't think Hidden Creek is anywhere near as good as Friar's -- many hire C+C for marketing reasons today not just for the love of the art as it happened before they were popular. 
Another example is that it wasn't Pascucci's initial idea to have Doak involved - he hired Nicklaus.

Is Hal Sutton's Boot Ranch a good example?
Doesn't Hal love the game hasn't he seen a lot across the world and met "everyone" in golf?
Why isn't Boot Ranch a world beater?

Lastly Pat, I'd like to see you treat others a little nicer, or as nice and generous as you do in person.

Sam
The best golf in Texas is not as good as the best golf in the NYC metro area.
It's in the numbers (population + $$$) and those numbers kept Tillie and the others in NY & NJ most of the time.

[Sam Morrow]

Mike I agree 100% about better courses in NYC and actually many other places. Overall we are very blessed to have a large quantity of very good golf and just because there are other places with better golf doesn't mean Texas golf is bad, it means lots of places have very good golf. It shows how lucky we all are. I think we should all be pretty happy that there are so many places we can go for good golf all over the world.

[Andy Troeger]

Whenever I read a thread about golf course architecture from those outside the state I wonder how many of these courses they have played:

Dallas National
Whispering Pines
Spanish Oaks
Austin Golf Club
Cordillera Ranch
Boot Ranch
Vaquero Club
Carlton Woods - Fazio
Carlton Woods - Nicklaus
Briggs Ranch
Escondido
Miramont
Pine Dunes
Craig Ranch
The Rawls Course
Butterfield Trail

All of these courses have been built since 2000.  They are among the best the state has to offer, and I doubt many that criticize Texas architecture have played hardly any of them.  While none may be the equivalent of Sand Hills, the depth of quality courses built in recent years in the state is something that I think is missed on this site.  But, I agree with Sam - nothing to see here

Would anyone disagree with Mike's assertion that few of these are 7's or higher? This looks like a list of 5's and 6's. I've played four on the list. I won't disagree that Texas has a strong set of 5's and 6's--but I think the point of this thread is why there are only a few 7's and no 8's or 9's.

Vaquero is a 5, no higher for me--its a pretty standard Fazio residential course. Of the 25 Fazio's I've played, which admittedly includes mostly good courses, this one is #24 ahead of Ventana Canyon's Canyon Course.
Butterfield Trail--also a solid 5. Its #23 of 25 of Fazio's I've seen. Fazio did a great job making something out of nothing with this course--El Paso isn't exactly a golfing hotbed.
Rawls Course--for me its a 6. I think others probably like it better. Interesting case study with Butterfield Trail on two ways to create interesting courses in totally different ways on pretty dull terrain. Not a big fan of the finisher.
Dallas National--the best of the bunch for me--interesting terrain and a solid design. Certainly deserves consideration for the US Top 100. Seems to be the standard bearer, along with Whispering Pines.

[Andy Troeger]

If you will draw a circle around Pinehurst and set it aside,then draw a circle around Monterey,and then draw a lone across the country using the Mason- Dixon  and take the whole west( circle Bandon and the Sand Hills) and then is Texas just a subset that looks like the rest of the south and west in course reputation and quality?

So to paraphrase, if you draw a line through the country and take out all the areas with elite courses south and/or west of that line, then Texas blends in with the rest of the areas that don't have elite golf? I can agree with that 

Sorry couldn't resist!

Your Oakmont question is intruiging, but I haven't played it.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Well, getting to a 9-10 is pretty hard without great land, but the Oakmont argument is interesting.  I think some tournament history would have helped the rep of many courses.

Besides land, (we do have some great land, just not near the big cities, with the exception of DN) agronomy was always behind and the summer climate just doesn't allow for major tournaments in TX.  The few here have been sort of ho hum affairs, which hurts the rep even further, but mostly, no one likes to play summer golf in TX.

[mike_beene]

Andy,just drawing out a few resort destination areas.I left LA ,San Fran,Denver,Charlotte,Atlanta,N.O.,Phx,etc.

[Andy Troeger]

Mike,
I actually think the state of Arizona has a similar sitation to that of Texas. Lots of good golf, but not much that's truly elite. Forest Highlands, Estancia, and some would argue Desert Forest are about it for Top 100 courses in AZ. Lots of 6's. Florida only has a few courses that rise beyond that level, despite lots of quantity. So you have a point, but I would still argue some of the areas you left have courses that are better than those in Texas (Riviera/LACC/Olympic/SFGC/Peachtree/East Lake to start).

[mike_beene]

Andy,that is kind of my point.I am a great lover of LA and would as soon be on the first tee at Belair as anywhere and I will spot you LACC and SFGC but can you really say an East Lake is better than Brook Hollow or my beloved Lakewood?No they are not Shinecock,National Golf Links,etc but they are equal to a lot of very well thought of places.Texas is a big state but the populated areas are fairly concentrated like most of America.In other words,we will take the oil from the Permium Basin but dont charge us for the acreage re golfable land. And we have to put refineries somewhere eliminating much of the gulf coast.

[Andy Troeger]

Mike,
Can't really speak to that comparison...haven't played Brook Hollow, Lakewood, or East Lake. I will say I think Peachtree is better than Riviera or LACC, for what that's worth.

Its certainly no crime to not have lots of elite golf--and its a fair point that a lot of other places don't have it either.

[Bill_McBride]

Mike,

I think what surprises me is the lack of visionaries that transformed their dreams into a reality because they had the vision and the money to do so.

Where were the Mike Keiser's, Jack Lupton's, Lowell Schulman's, Ken Bakst's, Roger Hansen's of Texas ?

Trying to get apostrophized?

How many courses have you played in Texas that you considered good golf courses?  Which ones?

[Sam Morrow]

Mike,

I think what surprises me is the lack of visionaries that transformed their dreams into a reality because they had the vision and the money to do so.

Where were the Mike Keiser's, Jack Lupton's, Lowell Schulman's, Ken Bakst's, Roger Hansen's of Texas ?

Trying to get apostrophized?

How many courses have you played in Texas that you considered good golf courses?  Which ones?

Bill,

 He said he's played a few

[Jeff_Brauer]

Visionaries.  Also an interesting question about what might have popularized great architecture in TX.

We had Hogan who did one course and quit because he didn't like the results with Joe Lee (and presumably the housing)

We had Byron Nelson, absolutely the nicest guy on earth, which may have hurt him architecturally.  He partnered with a few different folks over the years - Plummer who he was very deferential to - and later Joe Finger, who was probably the dominant personality, and when older, briefly with DA Wiebring.

In Houston, you had Jackie Burke, who did build his version of Augusta National at Champions, but it was sort of the practical TX thing - big greens, housing to make money, etc.  As pure as he wanted his club to be,  he never had the NGLA type vision.

Marvin Leonard has his vision for Colonial but average land.  Still stands among the best in state.  Ditto later on with Preston Trail.

Like I said earlier, maybe the vision of the great local club lacked great local land.  No self respecting Texan would build his dream course in Oregon, for Gawd sakes! (smiley inserted)  Maybe Ruidoso, NM for a summer place, but that has little great stuff either.

Its just the way it happened, I guess.

[danielfaleman]

How many great golf courses in Florida? Right. One 10, one 9, one 7.