[Matt Kardash]

Sorry Mike, Didnt notice your post in the sea of Matt bashing 

Ill let Tom answer but the only thing I have really heard Tom say he contributed to the PDGC was the stone wall along 14. I don't think Tom was there long enough to have much impact on a course that took 15 years to build! 
I read that the waterfall underneath the 10th green was not Dye's idea. I beleive it was the owner's. Dye doesn't strike me as the waterfall type!

[Andy Troeger]

Tom,
I didn't know that, but I can't say that I'm surprised. I always used to consider Mr. Dye my "favorite" modern architect, but having played more now my top six modern courses include two of his, two of yours, and two from Coore & Crenshaw (Friar's Head and Bandon Trails), so its perhaps time to adjust that. Although TPC Sawgrass is right there as well. Its a fun discussion and the styles have enough similarities and differences to merit interesting discussion. Its hard to go wrong with courses by any of the three of you.

I'm not a big fan of all of Mr. Dye's recent work. The Irish Course at Whistling Straits and his French Lick course to me are not at the same level as his best from previous decades.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom:

With Pete Dye GC, there were a couple of holes where I thought either the shaping was more Doak-like than Dye-like.  In particular, the par 5's, where the holes seem to have more rolls than the other holes - in particular #8.  Maybe #9 also.  Is there anything with the course that you would attribute to you?

However, didn't think that the river under #10 green was Doak-like   Actually was the only part of that entire golf course that I did not like.

Michael / Andy:

No, I would not take credit for anything in particular at Pete Dye Golf Club.  I did re-shape several of the greens on the front nine in my tour of duty there, but most of them were shaped again before they were planted, as the course did not open until 8 years after I was there.  The one really outlandish thing I shaped was attempting to turn the par-3 7th into an Eden green with a deep pot bunker front right, but it didn't make the cut.  #8 was the only hole on the front I didn't touch, it looked great the first time I saw it.  And the waterfall on #10 was already in place, too.   

[Ted Sturges]

Wow...lots has happened to this thread since I last looked at it.

Some replies-

To Michael G.:  Please don't put words in my mouth.  I don't believe I said anything negative about Mr. Fazio.  All I did was say if you want a course built in a parking lot, he is your man.  I was quoting Mr. Fazio himself on that one.  And...anyone who knows me would say I am not a sheep.  Just ask Randolph...I'm more in the Braying Donkey family.

To George P.:  Thank you for defending me!

To Matt K.:  Tom Doak was not the only one who agreed that Pete Dye can find holes.  Please peek back at my comments, specifically on The Golf Club.

"Don't be a sheep!   Be a Braying Donkey!"

TS

[George Pazin]

George:  When you completely dismiss every course designed by one of the best architects of this generation, you are following the herd.

Maybe, maybe not. GCA is very subjective - maybe he just didn't care for any of Fazio's work he played.

If there is any herd mentality on here - and I personally think there isn't much - it is that it is necessary to play all of an architect's courses to develop an opinion. That's just silly. I read a few (3) Grisham novels early on, thought they were mediocre at best (lousy, in fact, for 2), read another 25 pages of one given to me for Christmas a few years ago and haven't changed my opinion. Does that make me right? Or wrong, seeing as how successful he is at selling novels? I'd argue neither, it just means I don't care for his writing.

Similarly, too many people dismiss others who disagree as either being ignorant, idiotic, or not caring for a particular style. In a subjective topic, what's wrong with simply disagreeing with someone's view? Just because one likes Thai food doesn't mean one likes ALL Thai food...

Certainly my opinion of Pete Dye is at odds with virtually everyone on here. I don't dismiss everyone else as following the herd. I think others see things I don't, and equally important, I see things they don't. Doesn't make me right, just means we have a difference of opinion, which is all this stuff is.

[Ted Sturges]

Ted, Fazio has designed some fantastic golf courses - Victoria National, Wade Hampton, Alotian, etc...  Your disregard of him either indicates that you are a mere sheep that follows the herd on this site or have no appreciation for different styles of golf courses.  

To Michael G.:  This may be better suited to another thread (feel free to start one, but I think this has been widely covered on this site over the years).  You list VN on your short list of Mr. Fazio's "fantastic courses".  I lived 5 miles from VN when it was built, and have played there 20-25 times over the years.  I know that course quite well, and I certainly would not put it in the top 100 in the world, so for me, not "fantastic".  Visually, the course is eye catching...it's just not a style of architecture that I enjoy.  To me, the golf at VN is mostly visually intimitdating for the novice golfer.  If one is lucky enough to get one's tee shot in play, I believe the holes get progressively easier from there. Contrast that to NGLA, where it's easy to get a tee ball in play...and the holes get progressively more DIFFICULT from there.  I simply prefer that kind of golf more than the style of architecture represented by VN.  Doesn't say I'm right...doesn't say I'm wrong.  And if anything....I think this site has promoted "non-sheep" thinking for years.  For a very long period of time, Mr. Fazio made a ton of money and got tons of high profile contracts.  His courses always hit the ground running (with big promotion) and nearly all have consistently dropped in the rankings since. I think the success of people like Tom Doak, Gil Hanse and Bill Coore has resulted in some people questioning why Mr. Fazio's work was so revered.  Questioning whether or not the Emporer had clothes, to me, represents "non-sheep", breaking away from the bigger herd.  

TS

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