[Adrian_Stiff]

Ben and I looked at another project yesterday with what looked a substantial budget to build 27 holes. Whilst all projects are exciting we both had an Open mind being worried about the drawings we were given which showed a pretty steep bit of land and two runs of electrical pylons running through the site. A routing plan had been produced but the detailed things had not, the owner has fallen out with his original architect so I got a call and its all pretty rushed with a view to starting later this year.

Sadly the land that was allocated was pretty vile and the contour drawings did not lie. Even worse were the pylons that were the Eiffell Tower type and most holes (nine) were routed such that the pylons and cables ran alongside the hole. The land parcel had some great bits but they were an SSSI (Site of special scientic interest) and that basically means you cant go golfing in there, the housing had also been allocated in a nice golfing terrain. It was all a bit sad that in this economy here was a golf course that was going to be built and yet the ingredients to built it were just not right. In the end we just felt we could not make a nice course....so we decided it was not for us.

[Bruce Katona]

Adrian: The BESTreal estate deals are the ones you didn't do - its not what you didn't make but how much you saved by not doing them.  Power poles are on the top of my list of things used to immediately dismiss a site from consideration as you simply can't hide them.  Other no-no are (USA based):
1. threatened and endangered species - bald eagles especially
2. trout in the on-site streams
3. lots of freshwater wetlands.

[Tom_Doak]

Adrian: The BESTreal estate deals are the ones you didn't do - its not what you didn't make but how much you saved by not doing them.  Power poles are on the top of my list of things used to immediately dismiss a site from consideration as you simply can't hide them.  Other no-no are (USA based):
1. threatened and endangered species - bald eagles especially
2. trout in the on-site streams
3. lots of freshwater wetlands.

Bruce:

Our project at Rock Creek in Montana had a big power line crossing, and an abundance of wildlife, including trout in the on-site streams.

We actually worked with the state to improve the stream habitat for trout, at the same time we were putting two golf holes down close to the water's edge.  So, I know what you're saying, but it all depends on how you approach things.

P.S. to Adrian:  Congrats on turning down a project, but that one seems like a pretty easy call.  It's turning down a good-looking project because you don't see eye to eye with the client, or turning down a really important client because you don't like the ground, that is the acid test.  Hopefully that's a choice you get to make someday.

[RJ_Daley]

It is always interesting to me how the land has been owned and used prior to the brilliant idea of planning a GC and some homesites...

It usually falls into the category of; "what was this land - prospective developer/owner thinking?".  Is it me, or just my narrow perception that every land owner sick of farming, or holding a parcel that is good for nothing, thinks they can cut a fat hog in the arse, with a golf course- homesite development?  

If they have a piece of land, not suited to good golf development, why not seek to sell or swap, even for a significant original loss, inorder to get a piece that is suited - if they are dying to get into the GC biz.  But then again, most of these developers really don't care about the actual requirements or long term impact and management of an actual successful golf operation.  They want to sell lots and think that is their path to riches.  The golf course is some sort of obligatory feature in their plan.  Most of them don't bother to learn anything about the specific land requirements that a competent GCA would look for to have a shot at designing a functional course that has a chance at long term success. So they conjure up some pie-in-the-sky proforma, borrow a boatload, or project a fantasy set of operational projections, and rapidly go broke. And, we wonder why so many projects have tanked?  

[David_Tepper]

In the immortal words of our dear Mr. Spode, "land fit for purpose."

[Bruce Katona]

Tom: We had the same opportunity dealing with restoring the only native trout stream in southern NJ.  While a very impressive project and one I'm proud of, the cost to improve the linear habitat for the number of actual fish was just beyond belief. 

In addition, on this site there are other populations of threatened and endangered species (plant & animal). 

Given what the site was and what it looked like when our enity took over, you may want to believe regulatory folks above the local level would be helpful with a project of this size.

[Jud_T]

Adrian,

Congrats.  Turning down work is the first sign of a true artist, even if it was a relatively easy call in this case.  I'm sure there are guys out there who never saw a job they didn't like.

[Ulrich Mayring]

Don't know what you Americans are complaining over - bald eagle and trout, gimme a break. Here in Germany we have to stop golf courses because of the common hamster and if someone once spotted a hare

Ulrich

[Bruce Katona]

Ulrich: I give you the trout, but the bald eagle is the symbol of the US.  Folks get a little funny about messing with spots where the can lay their eggs.

I once had a "bugs and bunny tree hugger" plant a threatened turtle on a site just prior to having a site walk with the regualtors who look for those things.  The regulator almost came out of his shoes when he spotted the thing; he had never come across one in the wild, only in the lab.

PS: Didn't stop the project; just held it up fpor another 2 years.

PPS: I wish my stories were as good as Tom Paul's....turtles and critters are no match for his escapades.

[Niall C]

I recall a few years back when Silloth, which is largely a SSSI if I recall, got a degree of funding (£8K ?) from English Nature to create two small ponds (mudholes really) and rip out some of the gorse between the two so the naterjack toads could move more easily between the two (while at the same time being more vulnerable to predators mind you). After the work was completed they went back and counted the toads and I believe found two of them. Not sure if they were both of the same sex.

Niall 

[Neil_Crafter]

I recall a few years back when Silloth, which is largely a SSSI if I recall, got a degree of funding (£8K ?) from English Nature to create two small ponds (mudholes really) and rip out some of the gorse between the two so the naterjack toads could move more easily between the two (while at the same time being more vulnerable to predators mind you). After the work was completed they went back and counted the toads and I believe found two of them. Not sure if they were both of the same sex.

Niall 

Pond rights for gay toads!

Well done Adrian on turning down that commission, tough thing to do.

[James Boon]

Adrian,

I know how excited Ben can get about things    so I'm sure the two of you have made the right decisions!

All,

Regarding bald eagles and natterjack toads, I can't speak for legislation in America but it still surprises me how "yoghurt weaving, sandal wearing, tree huggers" or just plain NIMBYs think that presence of protected species will stop a development OR the amount of development professionals who get in a panic about the occasional endangered beastie? Its a simple case of considerate mitigation! Yes, in some cases it will delay projects, but surely we aren't still all that arrogant to think that man can go around doing what they want at the expense of wildlife, and usually if expert advice is sought early enough delays will be minimal.

Soap box moment over 

Cheers,

James

[Jon Wiggett]

Adrian,

I know how excited Ben can get about things    so I'm sure the two of you have made the right decisions!

All,

Regarding bald eagles and natterjack toads, I can't speak for legislation in America but it still surprises me how "yoghurt weaving, sandal wearing, tree huggers" or just plain NIMBYs think that presence of protected species will stop a development OR the amount of development professionals who get in a panic about the occasional endangered beastie? Its a simple case of considerate mitigation! Yes, in some cases it will delay projects, but surely we aren't still all that arrogant to think that man can go around doing what they want at the expense of wildlife, and usually if expert advice is sought early enough delays will be minimal.

Soap box moment over 

Cheers,

James

a little story about tree huggers.

I was invovled with a project which was on a site that was proposed for a landfill. Most of the locals were against it and the local wildlife society did all they could to stop it. They spent 6 months trying to find a certain type of Newt but to no avail. I do not know where they looked but during the construction and afterwards the place was crawling with them unfindable Newts. Goodness knows where they were looking.

Jon

[Randy Thompson]

Well done Adrian....can you send me the clients telephone number..all my courses have those electrical towers...I am thinking about including them in my new logo!! Just kidding about the telphone number!

[Doug Siebert]

When was the Woodlands course at Lawsonia built?  I remember at the RSG Wisconsin event a few years ago standing on the tee (I think it was #7, but don't quote me on that) and we were talking about the bald eagles nesting in a tree to the left.  Then hitting a high hook that for a moment looked like it might be the worst "eagle" shot of my life!

How did they get permission to build there?  Or were perhaps the eagles not there at the time?  Or maybe they identified their nesting sites and routed around them so their trees could be left alone?  That might account for some of the questionable routing on that course

[David_Elvins]

Adrian,

Not sure what you have against powerlines.

When used creatively they can provide an attractive "roof" to a golf hole, encouraging punch shots and the ground game whilst searving as a constant reminder of man's inovative and ingeneous nature. 

[Niall C]

Surely thats a case of using cheater lines ? Should be banned forthwith.

Niall

[David Harshbarger]

In 2007 the bald eagle was removed from the endangered species list.  The Bald and Golden Eagle Protection Act of 1940 protects the Bald Eagle from "takings", including disturbing one, or shooting at one.  Otherwise, I'm not sure that bald eagles enjoy greater protections than other wildlife at this point.

Here in Albany, I've seen one while running at the Peebles Island Park at the confluence of the Mohawk and Hudson.  Then the other day I saw what I think was either an eagle or a osprey at Battenkill CC, soaring above the river in the winds coming up out the river gorge.

Natterjacks?  That's another thing altogether.

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