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NAF

NGLA Emblem/Symbol
« on: December 06, 2001, 09:03:30 AM »
I was wearing my National sweater at work the other day when a co-worker asked me what the heck 2 guys wearing snowshoes were doing swordfighting.  I tried explaining what it represented and then got confused myself.  I am sure some of the National mavens here know the origin and if so please fill me in..
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: NGLA Emblem/Symbol
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2001, 09:45:55 AM »
I think it is based on an image discovered in stained glass of two persons playing the Dutch game (kolven?) that some claim was the precursor to golf. If I'm not mistaken it is supposedly the oldest image of either game.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: NGLA Emblem/Symbol
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2001, 09:48:22 AM »
I also believe the Dutch game was played on ice, which accounts for the funny shoes -- probaly wooden ice skates.   :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Gib Papazian

Re: NGLA Emblem/Symbol
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2001, 09:49:36 AM »
The two guys are from a Delft tile that Macdonald aquirred over in Holland. He argues that Kolven was not the beginning of the game but liked the look of the symbol.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Charles_P.

Re: NGLA Emblem/Symbol
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2001, 10:11:31 AM »
To clarify Gib's response, the delft tiles were from Holland, but Macdonald acquired them from a British collector (who was a member of St. George's).  The actual tiles can be seen in the NGLA clubhouse (back wall of the card room, to the right of the statue) and the Links Club (a social club founded by CB Mac, not the defunct golf course of the same name) in NY City.

A picture of the tiles, as well as Macdonald's commentary, appears in "Scotland's Gift: Golf" (required reading).  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:12 PM by -1 »

Gib_Papazian

Re: NGLA Emblem/Symbol
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2001, 10:29:48 AM »
Charles,

Where is that social club located in Manhattan? I spend a lot of time there . . . .
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Charles_P.

Re: NGLA Emblem/Symbol
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2001, 10:38:53 AM »
The Links Club is on East 62nd St., off of Madison Ave.  It's an old townhouse with a golf theme (the portrait of CB Mac that appears inside the front of "Scotland's Gift" resides there).  It was founded in 1916 by Charles Blair Macdonald as a social club with a golf theme.  In the early years, the membership largely overlapped with that of NGLA, Deepdale, and The Links Club (golf course); in a way, it was the Manhattan clubhouse for those people.  Today, it is a purely social club.

As you can see, I've co-opted their logo, which is half of the NGLA logo:

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:12 PM by -1 »

Gib_Papazian

Re: NGLA Emblem/Symbol
« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2001, 10:42:47 AM »
Charles,
Do you think they might consent to letting me have a look around? I do not recall George Bahto mentioning having been there to examine their memorabilia. He lives about 45 minutes away from there too!

Are you a member?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Charles_P.

Re: NGLA Emblem/Symbol
« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2001, 11:46:18 AM »
Gib-

I e-mailed you.

-Charles
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Charles_P.

Re: NGLA Emblem/Symbol
« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2001, 04:05:05 PM »
A better answer for Noel now that I'm home with my books.  Straight from the horse's mouth:

"Despite the early and continuous enthusiasm with which the game was played in Scotland, many chroniclers have tried to prove that golf originated on the Continent.  There is not the slightest scintilla of evidence to support this.  Numberless games with club and ball have been played for the past two thousand years, and doubless for millenniums before; but no game with more than one club and with a separate ball for each plyer, and no game having as its goal a designated hole in the ground.  Caesar came as close as any to modern golf when he played Paganica to a mark-- but not to a small hole in the ground -- with one club and the sort of leather ball stuffed with feathers which Scotchmen used before the discovery of the gutta percha.

"There are many other Continental rivals to golf.  There is even a resemblance of name in the German word Kolbe and the Dutch word Kolf, each signifying 'club.'  And Dutch pictures and tiles of the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries show men playing a game which has a superficial resemblance to the Scotch sport so far as the club goes.  Actually it resembles golf in no other particular.  It is nearly always pictured as a winter game on the ice, with the goal as a post.  Later kolf came indoors and was played in a rectangular space sixty by twenty-five feet with a floor as hard and level as a billiard table enclosed by walls two feet high, from wich the ball could be made to rebound accurately against posts placed near either end.  The French game of jeu de mail comes closer to golf, being played cross-country, with a kind of croquet mallet and to posts or raised marks.

"Why so many historians of the the game have so persistently interpreted kolf as golf I fail to comprehend.  As Andrew Lang says in 'Badminton': 'Clearly golf is no more kolf than cricket is poker.'  The only explanations I can see lies in the facility with which  Dutch painters turned out pictures of their countrymen playing with kolf club and ball.  In the golf collection which I purchased from Doctor W. Laidlaw Purves, a noted Scotch golfer who founded the Royal St. George's Golf Club of Sandwich, there are some twenty pictures of Dutch kolf scenes from paintings and many Delft tiles including one from which the little figures used as insignia of the National Golf Links of America and the Links Golf Club near New York were taken.  All of these Doctor Purves collected during some years of residence in Holland, but not one represents a true golfing scene.  Yet they can and do lead astray the golf enthusiast who seeks some concrete evidence of the origin of his favorite sport."

-Charles Blair Macdonald, Scotland's Gift: Golf, pp.8-12.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:12 PM by -1 »

Tom_Egan

Re: NGLA Emblem/Symbol
« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2001, 05:53:43 PM »
One of the charming aspects of Kolf (Kolven refers to the players) is that one of the implements standard in all players' sets was a lofted affair which, although made entirely from a single branch of wood, looked approximately like a 7- or 8 iron in use today.  Think of a hockey stick with a smaller blade and more loft.

This club was indispensable to the game played centuries ago and remains so today.  The reason is the little known fact that the "stymie" was an integral part of the game then and rules have never been set in place ameleorating the profound effect of such skilfull tactics.  

As you might expect, kolvens are excellent chippers.  So good, in fact, that changes in agronomy have not affected their skill in the slightest.  The lesson here is that you do NOT want to be on the wrong end of a chipping bet with an experienced kolven.

Top current administrators in the world of Kolf have been asked whether they felt their predecessors caused irreparable damage to the growth of their game when they ignored the mid-20th century stymie rules changes implemented by the USGA and R&A.  Their response has been, "Ach du lieber!!  Vass es losss?  It vas firn ze INTEGRITY of Kolf und ze plaisir of chupping zat ve said, 'Nein!!'"

They stated further that they are comfortable that Kolf will make a strong international comeback vis-a-vis the more commercialized version in vogue today, much as Court Tennis will eventually replace the boring "Serve, Volley and Sit Down" conventional tennis as practiced at Wimbledon and the US Open.

I'd be happy to handle any further historical, or club logo, issues you all might have on this GOLF COURSE ARCHITECTURE WEBSITE.    
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

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