[Patrick_Mucci]

As I mentioned in the threads I was involved in running several New York State Amatuer Championships at the clubs I was a member of and served on the board in various roles including President.  Also hosted USGA Qualifiers.  Hosted Invitiationals and other events.  Been on several club boards and practically ran one as a volunteer general manager.  So my experience not exactly trivial in the club business.  I guess since I set the tone at the club our handling of things was what I viewed a right.  Since the club offered to host the event we then did the best we could. 
Dan,

Does that mean that you provided unlimited, unrestricted access for practice rounds ?

I'm sure your club established and published practice round dates, like most clubs.
But, you indicated that you accomodated those who couldn't match their schedules with the club's schedule.
So, whom at your club had the authority to waive the the published restrictions and allow play at their whim ?

I am sure not everyone was happy but most feedback was overwhelmingly positive. 

First you tell us that "not everyone" was "happy", then you tell us that the feedback was "overwhelmingly positive"
How can that be ?  The membership couldn't be unhappy on one hand and overwhelmingly positive on the other.
Then you tell us that not all members were supportive of the events, ergo, more unhappiness.


Certainly not all members were supportive of the events.

To be perfectly clear the assitant in question had absolutely no issues with it other than disapointment. 

I understand the disappointment, I've also been denied practice rounds, either because the club didn't permit any or because I had a scheduling conflict.  But, whining that some great offense has been committed by these clubs doesn't hold any weight with me.

I posted this looking for opinions as everyone has different view points on things but the condensending nature of your response is a bit much.

I offered you my opinion.
I thought you were wrong and I thought you were whining.

Mark Chaplin said it best, from my perspective.
Where does the sense of entitlement stop ?

Lastly, if he wasn't your friend, would you really give a crap ?

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

The clubs and events I am in the loop on provided as many practice rounds as possible with guidelines set in advance. They varied with event and who for USGA, State AM etc. This from the get go sounded funny and idd not make real sense to me.

[Patrick_Mucci]

The clubs and events I am in the loop on provided as many practice rounds as possible with guidelines set in advance. They varied with event and who for USGA, State AM etc. This from the get go sounded funny and idd not make real sense to me.

Tiger,

In the NY Met area the problem seems to exaccerbate itself due to the number of Golf Associations.

For example, you could have the Bergen County Open, a NJSGA and or a NJPGA event, an MGA event and USGA events all centered on courrses in Bergen County.

In all cases, those associations look to obtain suitable venues.

Cyclically, some courses seem to make themselves available an inordinate number of times.

As a club repeatedly offers the course as the site for different events, factions within the membership start to resist and resent the club's use by non-members.

The larger the association, the more likely that an event is scheduled well in advance.
ie, the 2017 Women's Open is coming to Trump Bedminster.

Clubs usually accept events well in advance of the upcoming year's calendar, though they may be cognizant of the basic timing of club events.
ie, Club Championship after Labor Day, Member-Guests in Mid-June-July & August.

And, clubs have men's events, women's events, mixed events, junior events and Senior events, along with specialty events, such as on Memorial Day, July 4th and Labor Day.

What about the overseeding cycle, the aerification cycle, the topdressing cycle, the verticutting cycle when the course isn't in pristine shape.

So, the calendar starts getting crowded.

Add to that the desire for non-tournament daily member play.

At many clubs, the members complain that there are too many "CLUB" events, so when outside events are scheduled the complaint meter usually rises.

Now, add to the calendar, practice days you want to offer for the tournament/qualifier you're hosting.

When should they be granted ?  The week before, two weeks before, two days before.
What's a reasonable number of days to offer practice rounds ?
What are reasonable times ?

So, let's suppose a tournament is being held on August 14th, 15th and 16th of 2012.
150 competitors.

In light of the end of July and the begining of August, what would be a reasonable practice round schedule that would satisfy most prudent members and competitors ?

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Pat all that is true and can occur. However, a club pro with any experience should know 99% of what you said and plan aka set parameters with the organization accordingly. I know around here once the parameters are set, no member can change them. The deal is done and ones word is given. Pat, anywhere from 1 to 3 are the numbers that stick on my head. Generally it is the week of the event or the two weeks before the event. Usually the course is just open to practice rounds over a set period.  You know a week of every other tee time is left open etc. I frankly have never heard of anyone not being allowed access if they are gentlemen and ask for the opportunity to play the course several weeks out if they happen to be in town. We do not have the numbers of events or organization numbers you have to push any sense of the word reasonable though. As they say these are two different worlds between jersey/nyc metro and the deep south.

[Dan Byrnes]

As I mentioned in the threads I was involved in running several New York State Amatuer Championships at the clubs I was a member of and served on the board in various roles including President.  Also hosted USGA Qualifiers.  Hosted Invitiationals and other events.  Been on several club boards and practically ran one as a volunteer general manager.  So my experience not exactly trivial in the club business.  I guess since I set the tone at the club our handling of things was what I viewed a right.  Since the club offered to host the event we then did the best we could.  
Dan,

Does that mean that you provided unlimited, unrestricted access for practice rounds ?

I'm sure your club established and published practice round dates, like most clubs.
But, you indicated that you accomodated those who couldn't match their schedules with the club's schedule.
So, whom at your club had the authority to waive the the published restrictions and allow play at their whim ?

I am sure not everyone was happy but most feedback was overwhelmingly positive.  

First you tell us that "not everyone" was "happy", then you tell us that the feedback was "overwhelmingly positive"
How can that be ?  The membership couldn't be unhappy on one hand and overwhelmingly positive on the other.
Then you tell us that not all members were supportive of the events, ergo, more unhappiness.


Certainly not all members were supportive of the events.

To be perfectly clear the assitant in question had absolutely no issues with it other than disapointment.  

I understand the disappointment, I've also been denied practice rounds, either because the club didn't permit any or because I had a scheduling conflict.  But, whining that some great offense has been committed by these clubs doesn't hold any weight with me.

I posted this looking for opinions as everyone has different view points on things but the condensending nature of your response is a bit much.

I offered you my opinion.
I thought you were wrong and I thought you were whining.

Mark Chaplin said it best, from my perspective.
Where does the sense of entitlement stop ?

Lastly, if he wasn't your friend, would you really give a crap ?

Of course the club offered a practice round schedule but also tried our best  to accommodate requests outside of that time if possible.  Certainly weren't giving 8:20am on Saturday, but if it was Saturday afternoon and we had availability we accommodated or told them when we could accommodate them.  Tournament committee and pro make those decisons under the premise that the club wanted to put its best effort into hosting a top notch event. Participants aren't just some group paying for the privlidge but treated as we would want others to treat us if we were visiting their club.

It virtually impossible to have an event at the club of this nature and not have someone unhappy.  Certainly some members think if it inconvieniences them it must be bad, participants don't like the pins or playing partners, tee times etc,  Overall the vast majority of the participants, tournament officials and members we very pleased with the event, the hospitality received and the hospitality given to our guests.   The members felt like the club was a gracious host which most of the membership viewed as important.  Treat others as you would want to be treated?

Once again the golfer who's schedule caused a conflict with practice round availability or such wasn't available wasn't the whining.  He would have preferred being able to preview the course but didn't whine a bit about it.  He just relayed the situation when I asked. If there is whine it falls on me, I wasn't trying to whine just looking to see how my experiences compared to others.

I said I appreciated your opinion and those of others.  I asked the question because in my experience I have seen things done differently.  I realize that different clubs and people handle things differently.  However instead of stating that,  your reponse was very condescending which I didn't see as necessary. However a condensending attitude seems to tie in to your views on the subject and that is why we see things so differently.  Treat others as you want to be treated is what I do.

Is see no entitlement in this entire discussion but obviously you do. I don't have an issue with your view on that.  I expect that we just look at life differently. That is ok and what makes the world go round.

He really isn't a friend, he is a pro at one of my clubs.  As a club member I wish to see him to well regardless of whether I like him or consider him a friend.  He represents my club well and as a club community I beleive we owe it to him to support him on his quest.  It's not like the people who played in the events at my clubs were people I knew, would know if I fell over them or will ever see again but when your a guest of my club your experience is a reflection of that club and as a member a reflection of me.  So I try and make it a good experience.

Dan

[Patrick_Mucci]

Of course the club offered a practice round schedule but also tried our best  to accommodate requests outside of that time if possible.  Certainly weren't giving 8:20am on Saturday, but if it was Saturday afternoon and we had availability we accommodated or told them when we could accommodate them.  Tournament committee and pro make those decisons under the premise that the club wanted to put its best effort into hosting a top notch event. Participants aren't just some group paying for the privlidge but treated as we would want others to treat us if we were visiting their club.

Dan,

Each club has their own culture, their own dynamic.
At some clubs Saturday afternoons are jammed.
I know several clubs that I'm very familiar with that have the men play in the morning, women in the afternoon and couples later in the afternoon, on Saturday and Sunday.  It's a rare occurance, in this area, when practice round concessions are made on the weekends.
During the week is the choice of preference, but, women's play is Tuesday, and Wednesdays are usually booked in the afternoon.
Tuesday and Thursday afternoons are the best bet, provided they don't conflict with other club events.
Fridays are booked during the summer

It virtually impossible to have an event at the club of this nature and not have someone unhappy.  Certainly some members think if it inconvieniences them it must be bad, participants don't like the pins or playing partners, tee times etc,  Overall the vast majority of the participants, tournament officials and members we very pleased with the event, the hospitality received and the hospitality given to our guests.   The members felt like the club was a gracious host which most of the membership viewed as important.  Treat others as you would want to be treated?

At the clubs I'm familiar with, they went out of their way to host events, and the competitors.
But, you can't please everyone.
For years and years, the factions favoring and disfavoring outside events engaged in their tug of war.
The overriding objection I heard is:  Don't inconvenience the members.
The event dates are set and on the club calendars, so that conflict is usually solved well in advance.
Practice rounds are set well in advance.
But, accomodating the outliers isn't easy considering the various schedules you have to co-ordinate and the political gauntlet you have to run.

Once again the golfer who's schedule caused a conflict with practice round availability or such wasn't available wasn't the whining.  He would have preferred being able to preview the course but didn't whine a bit about it.  He just relayed the situation when I asked.

I said I appreciated your opinion and those of others.  I asked the question because in my experience I have seen things done differently.  I realize that different clubs and people handle things differently.  However instead of stating that,  your reponse was very condescending which I didn't see as necessary. However a condensending attitude seems to tie in to your views on the subject and that is why we see things so differently.  Treat others as you want to be treated is what I do.

If I'm hosting a party, and the date and time is set, and you can't make it, asking me to extend the party so that you can attend is rude.
The same applies to a golf event a club is hosting, be it a tournament or a practice round.
You know the dates and the times in advance.
Asking the club to extend your invitation is rude and typically runs afoul of member interests.

Is see no entitlement in this entire discussion but obviously you do. I don't have an issue with your view on that.  I expect that we just look at life differently. That is ok and what makes the world go round.

Except that I'm not alone with my views.
And, I've seen the repercussions when the guidelines are ignored or disregarded.

If you want to hold future events, the best tact is to not alienate your members by making exceptions to the format approved by the board

He really isn't a friend, he is a pro at one of my clubs.  As a club member I wish to see him to well regardless of whether I like him or consider him a friend.  He represents my club well and as a club community I beleive we owe it to him to support him on his quest.  It's not like the people who played in the events at my clubs were people I knew, would know if I fell over them or will ever see again but when your a guest of my club your experience is a reflection of that club and as a member a reflection of me.  So I try and make it a good experience.

Let me offer you another view.
If you made an exception, as President, and allowed a contestant to play their practice round at their convenience,
Why shouldn't another member, paying the same dues you pay, allow a friend of his, who's also a contestant, to play at their convenience, without a guest fee ?
I'll guarantee you that that couldn't happen and that it was only due to the power of the office you held that you could ignore or bypass the established protocol set up for practice rounds.

So, the question is, did you abuse the power of your office by granting exceptions, exceptions that all other dues paying members couldn't grant ?

Do you think resentment is built, when you wave your wand of power and grant exceptions, but, other members, of equal standing, can't do the same ?

Regarding your asst, the simplest solution would be to call a member of the hosting club and ask him to do you a favor by hosting the asst.
In addition, like doctor to doctor and lawyer to lawyer, pro to pro should have resolved this situation.
Either you, or your pro should have called the hosting club's pro, or a member, and arranged for your assistant to play his practice round.

[TEPaul]

Dan Byrnes and Carl Johnson:

Firstly, with USGA championship qualifying sites there really is no local USGA entity that schedules, organizes and staffs (officials and rules officials) those USGA qualifiers. In all cases it's done by the USGA through a national network (and now international) of local, regional and state golf assocations. It's pretty much always been done that way and if one really thinks about it that is about the only way it could be done.

In other words, the USGA never does the actual site selections and site scheduling for their championship qualifiers----the local, regional and state golf associations do that for the USGA. In a real sense this is the necessary reality of what I would call "golf's vertical integration" and particularly the vertical integration of basically amateur golf associations from the USGA on down through the state, regional and local golf associations.

Therefore, things like practice rounds are always up to the local, regional and state associations and more fundamentally up to the clubs those associations can find and use and schedule these qualifiers with. It's always been that way. I haven't played in those qualifiers for over a decade now but my recollection is that the USGA championship entry applications have always had a notation or clause that states they (USGA) cannot and do not guarantee that qualifier practice rounds will be available.

But it is also my experience that in years past clubs were more likely to offer practice rounds to qualifier participants then they do now.

That's just the way it is and the way it always has been. Experienced competitors on that level understand this and just deal with it as they always have.

If the USGA or any of the local, regional and state associations tried to force their member clubs to have to offer all competitors practice rounds to hold USGA qualifiers at their courses the problems of getting USGA championship qualifying sites would simply get a whole lot harder for the USGA and local, regional and state associations to do.

[Dan Byrnes]

I understand what your saying.  Most people are going to arrange their schedules to fit in the window.  People are just compliant that way.  Some people are going to have a scheduling conflict for some reason that may be deemed valid or invalid by others, of course some people are just going to think they are more important than anything else.

My feelings are that I would give those with a scheduling conflict the benefit of the doubt and live with getting taken advantage of a few all about me folks.

Certainly some clubs are busier than others and that is a factor.  The pro at the course nows the availability better than anyone.  I am to saying these folks get carte blanche but certainly the clubs I am members of have all sorts of availability on a regular basis and that availability can be offered up.

All clubs are different and that is really what drove me to post in the first place. I don't live in a major metro area and that brings a different club demographic/use  than what you may experience it what appears to be the Met section.  The clubs in that area very well may operate quite differently and have different busy times than my clubs do.  The visitor privlidges in your area may HAVE to be far more strict due to the potential number of visitors.  Same goes for a "name" club as the number of visitor request would outstrip supply for say Merion?

I don't really get that party anology.  I would see it more as the actual tournament  is a wedding  on Martha's Vineyard and the host has arranged for seats on the Friday at 4pm ferry, doesn't really matter which one you take if there open availability and you still are on time for the wedding?

I also can't imagine a club where I was a member of where I would be told that a friend who is playing in a tournament where a practice round is allowed couldn't play that practice round with me at anytime I as the member choose?  So from my experience the member and President have the same privlidges so no abuse of power?   It very well may work differently in your area.  Are there times at your club where you can't have a guest?  I understand not multiple guests but are the restricted no guest times?

I never had to personally intervene for a participant.  Part of the organization of the event was the tournament Commitee and the Pro had authority to do what allowed the club to be good hosts.  I certainly took some heat in general from the membership segment who didn't think giving up the club to an event like this was a good idea as they felt inconvientieced, not really different than any of the multitude of issues members raised for tee time selection to women and secondary tee times, or whatever else was the issue I Pratt to that member or segment.  We typically got more heat on local  invitational  than a state wide championship as their was critisism by other members vs the players who could compete in a scratch event and were willing to drop $1000  to do so?  Still I think those events are good for the club and you can't make everyone happy.

you are certaily correct that had I known a member at one of the places in question I would certainly have made a call.  There is also a level of club status that I don't posses that carries more weight, same with pro to pro situations.  If I am a Pine Valley member and the Pro there calls to arrange for me to play elsewhere that gets me in 99% of the places, if I my membership is at some unheralded local club that 99% drops significantly as you know.  Proper membership does have its privlidges.

I still don't see any entitlement, the assistant asked for a favor and was denied, he was fine with that.  I was just surprised that there was not more effort made to accommodate it as there would have been at my club. Maybe there was and it wasn't relayed to the assistant or to me.  Doesn't mean it would have happened 100% at my clubs but alternatives would have been offered.

It very well may come down to different areas have to operate differently due to member demands.

Dan

[Patrick_Mucci]

I understand what your saying.  Most people are going to arrange their schedules to fit in the window.  People are just compliant that way.  Some people are going to have a scheduling conflict for some reason that may be deemed valid or invalid by others, of course some people are just going to think they are more important than anything else.

My feelings are that I would give those with a scheduling conflict the benefit of the doubt and live with getting taken advantage of a few all about me folks.

Certainly some clubs are busier than others and that is a factor.  The pro at the course nows the availability better than anyone.  I am to saying these folks get carte blanche but certainly the clubs I am members of have all sorts of availability on a regular basis and that availability can be offered up.

All clubs are different and that is really what drove me to post in the first place. I don't live in a major metro area and that brings a different club demographic/use  than what you may experience it what appears to be the Met section.  The clubs in that area very well may operate quite differently and have different busy times than my clubs do.  The visitor privlidges in your area may HAVE to be far more strict due to the potential number of visitors.  Same goes for a "name" club as the number of visitor request would outstrip supply for say Merion?

I don't really get that party anology.  I would see it more as the actual tournament  is a wedding  on Martha's Vineyard and the host has arranged for seats on the Friday at 4pm ferry, doesn't really matter which one you take if there open availability and you still are on time for the wedding?

I also can't imagine a club where I was a member of where I would be told that a friend who is playing in a tournament where a practice round is allowed couldn't play that practice round with me at anytime I as the member choose?  

Once the practice round is played outside of the designated dates/times, if a participant plays with a member, the member is charged a guest fee.

So from my experience the member and President have the same privlidges so no abuse of power?   It very well may work differently in your area.  Are there times at your club where you can't have a guest?

Absolutely.

The only time I've seen exceptions made is when the guest is a house guest of the member and has traveled more than X amount of miles from their home.

I understand not multiple guests but are the restricted no guest times?

Yes.
Guest play is within or after predetermined times

I never had to personally intervene for a participant.  Part of the organization of the event was the tournament Commitee and the Pro had authority to do what allowed the club to be good hosts.  I certainly took some heat in general from the membership segment who didn't think giving up the club to an event like this was a good idea as they felt inconvientieced, not really different than any of the multitude of issues members raised for tee time selection to women and secondary tee times, or whatever else was the issue I Pratt to that member or segment.  We typically got more heat on local  invitational  than a state wide championship as their was critisism by other members vs the players who could compete in a scratch event and were willing to drop $1000  to do so?  Still I think those events are good for the club and you can't make everyone happy.
Agreed.
My point is that you don't want to wear out your welcome by abusing the established protocols and alienating your membership.

you are certaily correct that had I known a member at one of the places in question I would certainly have made a call.  There is also a level of club status that I don't posses that carries more weight, same with pro to pro situations.  If I am a Pine Valley member and the Pro there calls to arrange for me to play elsewhere that gets me in 99% of the places, if I my membership is at some unheralded local club that 99% drops significantly as you know.  Proper membership does have its privlidges.

I still don't see any entitlement, the assistant asked for a favor and was denied, he was fine with that.  
I was just surprised that there was not more effort made to accommodate it as there would have been at my club.
Maybe there was and it wasn't relayed to the assistant or to me.  
Doesn't mean it would have happened 100% at my clubs but alternatives would have been offered.

Not only are clubs different from one another, but, even the same club, depending upon the timing in the golf season, view and administer things differently.  Before Memorial Day and after Labor Day, things tend to be more relaxed, less crowded, thus accomodations are easier.
But, between those two dates, getting exceptions granted is like pulling teeth due to increased play.

It very well may come down to different areas have to operate differently due to member demands.

Picture Winged Foot, Baltsurol, Plainfield and Merion, and someone, during the middle of the golf season, looking for a practice round outside of the prescribed times.  The demand on those clubs, in terms of member play, guest play and outing play is so tremendous, that accomodating competitors/qualifiers who couldn't meet the practice days is difficult to impossible, and you can understand that.

[Will Lozier]

...like doctor to doctor and lawyer to lawyer, pro to pro should have resolved this situation.

Pat,

This is the most sensible thing you've said regarding this situation and probably all that needed to be said.  Certainly members want minimal disturbance to their opportunity to play their golf course and you've gone out of your way to explain the many situations you've experienced at your clubs.  But, having been a PGA Apprentice, I never had a problem playing any course - practice or leisure round - by going through a fellow professional.  Of course I never made a call down to NGLA!

Cheers

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Dan i still not get your friends problem. There are set times and days for practice rounds. It is up to him to fit in. If he cannot get that, then he will not have a practice round. The fact some clubs are more accomodating in my area than the ones described by you or Pat not change the general format. TE is correct in the USGA defers to state and local affiliates to man and organize with host club. To be a bit snarky it seems like a personal problem in understanding rules to me.

[Will Lozier]

The only time I've seen exceptions made is when the guest is a house guest of the member and has traveled more than X amount of miles from their home.

Pat,

Isn't this "ignor(ing) or bypass(ing) the established protocol"?  What about a professional who, for example, lost a family member and needed to attend the funeral in a far away location?  Should he/she be granted an exemption to the scheduled practice round dates?  I agree with you that practice round availability is (should be) known to any competitor and it is solely their responsibility to make schedule their round accordingly.  However, life happens and throws us off our schedule from time to time. 

Cheers

[Dan Byrnes]

Pat

It seems the clubs we belong to operate very differently.  I am sure a big part of it is that the Met section is quite a bit more busy.  In my limited play as a guest at clubs there I never noticed but I was always playing on weekdays and only have played Quaker, Sleepy Hollow and few other lesser courses.

Out of the 5 or so clubs I have been a member of, none have any times where a member can't have one guest.  There are some restrictions on multiple guests.  So either because of demand or policy that is very different than your experience.  If I brought a guest to my club and they were eligible for a practice round for an event , no matter when I brought them their round would be credited towards that practice round.

On a mid summer Saturday is Winged foot booked all day from dawn to dusk?  Clubs in my area are never that busy.

I appreciate your enlightenment to your experiences as while I knew it would be different because of location,  I was naive about how much different.  It appears that my experiences aren't  typical enough to support my oringnal views. 

Would you be able to tell me how many members a Winged Foot or Merion or Plainfield would actually have?  Also how many rounds one of the 18 hole clubs would experience in an average year.

Thanks

Dan

[jeffwarne]

The only time I've seen exceptions made is when the guest is a house guest of the member and has traveled more than X amount of miles from their home.

Pat,

Isn't this "ignor(ing) or bypass(ing) the established protocol"?  What about a professional who, for example, lost a family member and needed to attend the funeral in a far away location?  Should he/she be granted an exemption to the scheduled practice round dates?  I agree with you that practice round availability is (should be) known to any competitor and it is solely their responsibility to make schedule their round accordingly.  However, life happens and throws us off our schedule from time to time. 

Cheers

yes Will,
 life does happen.
We all have busy schedules, and sometimes unforseen events happen.
I coach Little League and often just can't make it to play when practice rounds are scheduled.
I've played many courses sight unseen in tournaments for just that reason,but have also had tragic events throw me off me schedule and cause me to forgo practice rounds.
Never would occur to me to call a club and ask for an exception.
Probably explains why I often perform poorly in certain events , but also could explain why some assistants remain assistants .

[Sam Morrow]

Dan i still not get your friends problem. There are set times and days for practice rounds. It is up to him to fit in. If he cannot get that, then he will not have a practice round. The fact some clubs are more accomodating in my area than the ones described by you or Pat not change the general format. TE is correct in the USGA defers to state and local affiliates to man and organize with host club. To be a bit snarky it seems like a personal problem in understanding rules to me.

I've thought the same thing for 3 days and surprised this thread is still around.

[Dan Byrnes]

Dan i still not get your friends problem. There are set times and days for practice rounds. It is up to him to fit in. If he cannot get that, then he will not have a practice round. The fact some clubs are more accomodating in my area than the ones described by you or Pat not change the general format. TE is correct in the USGA defers to state and local affiliates to man and organize with host club. To be a bit snarky it seems like a personal problem in understanding rules to me.

It appears your not reading it correctly or I have done a poor job of communicating it.  The assistant in question who really isn't a friend but the assistant at my club didn't have a problem with the result of his inquiries.Certainly he would have preferred to have a practice round but since his schedule didn't permit it and the host club couldn't accommodate him he was fine with it.

I felt that he wasn't treated properly, however I perhaps was using my personal experiences with similar issues as too strong a barometer of the way things should be.  Some of the post provided insight that I wasn't quite as knowledgeable off previously to be more open to what happened being acceptable.

I really don't see anytime to be snarky about anything though as I don't see the benefit?

Dan

[Patrick_Mucci]

Dan,

I can't cite you the number of rounds presently, but, I've heard terms like "golf factory" and busier that a resort, when describing golf at those clubs.

Baltusrol has no pool, no tennis courts.
Winged Foot's pool is relatively new in terms of its opening.
I can't recall seeing tennis courts at WF, but, maybe they're hidden somewhere.
During summer season, on weekends, they're very busy.

At two clubs I'm very familiar with, they're packed from 7:00-7:30 till dusk on weekends.

Every club has it's own culture, it's own rules.
Some allow fivesomes, some would throw you out for playing in a fivesome.
Some are very restrictive on guest play and don't permit unaccompanied guests, some do.

Many clubs have so many events during the season that the members object to the schedule.
Others embrace every event, so there's no singular outlook.

I know from experiences, that problems have arisen when established, published protocols are............. ignored or violated.

I can remember a club that wouldn't budge on allowing contestants to have a practice round, and for some reason, the pro seemed to be the impediment.  Two years later, my club held an event and I thought about rejecting requests from that club, for practice rounds, but, agreed to allow them, not wanting to punish the innocent, even though doing so might have sent a message back to that club that turnaround was fair play.

I know one thing and that's that you can't please everyone.
So, you have to try to do what's right in each particular situation and take the flack from those that disagree.

[Patrick_Mucci]

The only time I've seen exceptions made is when the guest is a house guest of the member and has traveled more than X amount of miles from their home.

Pat,

Isn't this "ignor(ing) or bypass(ing) the established protocol"? 

NO, the club had, as part of their rules, the exception for house guests.
The rules clearly defined what constituted a "house guest" the frequency of house guests and the conditions of play.

What about a professional who, for example, lost a family member and needed to attend the funeral in a far away location? 
Should he/she be granted an exemption to the scheduled practice round dates? 

NO

I agree with you that practice round availability is (should be) known to any competitor and it is solely their responsibility to make schedule their round accordingly. 

However, life happens and throws us off our schedule from time to time. 

And it's our responsibilty to get back on schedule.
If you make exceptions, they never end, and party "B" says, "you made an exception for part "A" why won't you make one for me, I also had to attend a funeral, but, it was only 10 miles away.  Then, the funeral becomes a doctor's or dentist's appointment, then, he had to attend his kids school play.  The list is never ending, hence, you establish a reasonable protocol and stick with it, otherwise you'll go crazy.

[Will Lozier]

The only time I've seen exceptions made is when the guest is a house guest of the member and has traveled more than X amount of miles from their home.

Pat,

Isn't this "ignor(ing) or bypass(ing) the established protocol"?  What about a professional who, for example, lost a family member and needed to attend the funeral in a far away location?  Should he/she be granted an exemption to the scheduled practice round dates?  I agree with you that practice round availability is (should be) known to any competitor and it is solely their responsibility to make schedule their round accordingly.  However, life happens and throws us off our schedule from time to time. 

Cheers

yes Will,
 life does happen.
We all have busy schedules, and sometimes unforseen events happen.
I coach Little League and often just can't make it to play when practice rounds are scheduled.
I've played many courses sight unseen in tournaments for just that reason,but have also had tragic events throw me off me schedule and cause me to forgo practice rounds.
Never would occur to me to call a club and ask for an exception.
Probably explains why I often perform poorly in certain events , but also could explain why some assistants remain assistants .

True Dat!

[Dan Byrnes]

Pat

The two clubs you are familiar with that have e heavy play, can you ball park the membership numbers?  Nothing I have experienced is close to that level of play.

Dan

[Will Lozier]

The only time I've seen exceptions made is when the guest is a house guest of the member and has traveled more than X amount of miles from their home.

Pat,

Isn't this "ignor(ing) or bypass(ing) the established protocol"? 

NO, the club had, as part of their rules, the exception for house guests.
The rules clearly defined what constituted a "house guest" the frequency of house guests and the conditions of play.

What about a professional who, for example, lost a family member and needed to attend the funeral in a far away location? 
Should he/she be granted an exemption to the scheduled practice round dates? 

NO

I agree with you that practice round availability is (should be) known to any competitor and it is solely their responsibility to make schedule their round accordingly. 

However, life happens and throws us off our schedule from time to time. 

And it's our responsibilty to get back on schedule.
If you make exceptions, they never end, and party "B" says, "you made an exception for part "A" why won't you make one for me, I also had to attend a funeral, but, it was only 10 miles away.  Then, the funeral becomes a doctor's or dentist's appointment, then, he had to attend his kids school play.  The list is never ending, hence, you establish a reasonable protocol and stick with it, otherwise you'll go crazy.

Pat,

Again, I agree with the general premise that clubs are very generous to allow outside tournaments and it is absolutely the responsibility of the competitor to schedule in accordance with pre-published dates.  But...

If you think the hypothetical of the funeral situation should unequivocally be denied, have you never asked for someone one else to be understanding and accommodating of you?  Do you also believe that if automatic assault rifles are banned that our right to bear arms will be put in jeopardy?  You seem very letter of the law here.  Isn't there enough common sense in the private club world to deal with such situations on a case by case basis?

I do find if funny that when you talk about "exceptions" you find acceptable, they happen to be written "exceptions."  If they're written in the rules, is it really an exception? 

Cheers

[Patrick_Mucci]

Again, I agree with the general premise that clubs are very generous to allow outside tournaments and it is absolutely the responsibility of the competitor to schedule in accordance with pre-published dates.  But...

If you think the hypothetical of the funeral situation should unequivocally be denied, have you never asked for someone one else to be understanding and accommodating of you? 

Sure,

But what you're missing is that the BOARD establishes the protocol and usually, only the President has the day to day authority to make exceptions.  The manager, pro, golf chairman or committee members can't make unilateral decisions and all requests have to be filtered through a central system.   Imagine the Pro making an exception for one excuse, the manager making an exception for another excuse and the golf chairman denying two identical requests.  You appear to be unfamiliar with how clubs are run and the political forces which influence decisions and policies.

Do you also believe that if automatic assault rifles are banned that our right to bear arms will be put in jeopardy? 

In New York City ALL firearms are prohibited unless properly licensed, and even then, carrying is strictly regulated.
But certainly automatic assault weapons have no place in Member-Guests

You seem very letter of the law here. 

Well, let's just say that experience has been a great eye opener and teacher

Isn't there enough common sense in the private club world to deal with such situations on a case by case basis?

Absolutely not.
If I told you about the abuses that have occurred in this area you wouldn't believe it.
Common sense isn't so common, at private clubs and everywhere else

I do find if funny that when you talk about "exceptions" you find acceptable, they happen to be written "exceptions."  If they're written in the rules, is it really an exception? 

It's an exception to the published guest rules, which restrict the hours of guest play.
It required codification because it required determining the mile radius, frequency and other defining parameters
[/quote]

[Will Lozier]

I do find if funny that when you talk about "exceptions" you find acceptable, they happen to be written "exceptions."  If they're written in the rules, is it really an exception? 

It's an exception to the published guest rules, which restrict the hours of guest play.
It required codification because it required determining the mile radius, frequency and other defining parameters

So much for common sense?  And talk about too much bureaucracy!  Do you have a bunch of liberal teachers on the board?

Cheers

[Mark Johnson]

I do find if funny that when you talk about "exceptions" you find acceptable, they happen to be written "exceptions."  If they're written in the rules, is it really an exception? 

It's an exception to the published guest rules, which restrict the hours of guest play.
It required codification because it required determining the mile radius, frequency and other defining parameters

So much for common sense?  And talk about too much bureaucracy!  Do you have a bunch of liberal teachers on the board?

Cheers

You need to remember who is serving on the boards of private clubs.   In many cases, you have retired people who were usually quite successful in their given field.

Looking for an opportunity to reassert their management acumen, they take it and will often micromanage anything that can be micromanaged from guest policies to pin placements to the color of the valet's uniforms.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I do find if funny that when you talk about "exceptions" you find acceptable, they happen to be written "exceptions."  If they're written in the rules, is it really an exception? 

It's an exception to the published guest rules, which restrict the hours of guest play.
It required codification because it required determining the mile radius, frequency and other defining parameters

So much for common sense?  And talk about too much bureaucracy!  Do you have a bunch of liberal teachers on the board?
Will,

It is a common sense approach and solution to a unique situation.

Have you served on the Board of a golf club ?

Cheers

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