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Mark McKeever

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I was fortunate to play these heavyweights back to back this year and thought I would share my comparison that I had with a good friend recently.

Let's discuss!



Kittansett and Boston GC.  I don’t even know where to begin because they are both fantastic golf courses but there are different aspects that make them both great.

Let’s put them toe to toe and see what happens!

Routing:  Kittansett wins.  The routing bay, then into the woods, then back out to the bay to finish is great.  I have a favorite bay stretch (3-6) and a favorite inland stretch being 8-13.  Boston starts away from the clubhouse and it’s a decent walk from 9-10.  Personally I’d love to see the nines switched at BGC.  

Land Movement:  Boston Golf Club wins.  Coming from Eastward Ho! Boston Golf club the previous two days, I was absolutely stunned by the land movement of both golf courses.  The land is absolutely phenomenal for both golf courses.  I was thinking that the inland holes at Kittansett would have more movement, but they didn’t.  Regardless they made great use of the land, but just didn’t have the canvas that BGC has.

Greens: Boston Golf Club wins in overtime.  The greens at Kittansett were subtle and very very tricky which I loved!  I was scratching my head all day and my caddie was finding lines that were the exact opposite of what I was thinking.  It took me until 18 to make a birdie and it was a two putt after hitting a drive 4 iron to 20 feet.  Hanse made some very bold greens at BGC and I like how they are able to keep them a hair slower to allow for some very fun pin positions and putts.  There is a lot of strategy at BGC as to where you need to hit a shot from to have access to certain pins, where I felt that Kittansett was all aerial darts from anywhere in the fairway with only one or two exceptions.  The areas short and around the greens at KGC were soft and did not allow for shot creativity which surprised me.
  
Par 3’s Kittansett wins.   The Island green was such a cool feature right on the bay.  It’s a short hole, but you better hit the shot or else!  We had very little wind when we played, but I would LOVE to play this hole in a big crosswind or into the wind.  BGC’s par three’s never seemed to grab my attention as much as the other holes.  I thought the 8th hole was the weakest on the property and hole 11 just seemed to get you from point A to point B.

Par 4’s Boston Golf Club wins.  There was a lot of variety out there and plenty of opportunities to catch “speed slots” if you hit a good drive from the correct tees.  They were more prominent on the longer more difficult holes and gave the opportunity to turn a hard hole into a scoring hole with a well played tee shot.  There were a lot of drive wedge holes out at KGC but that comes from being a classic old style golf course.

Par 5’s  Boston Golf Club wins.  On each of the par 5’s there is a risk that can be taken to make the hole considerably easier whether its on the tee shot by taking a bold line, or getting aggressive on the second shot.  Each one offers the golfer the opportunity to get a distinct advantage on the hole over his opponent and that really struck me as a huge asset to the golf course.  The par 5’s at Kittansett were very good, but just couldn’t stack up.

Conditioning Boston Golf Club wins.  Kittansett had a very rustic feel to it, which was really cool.  It was timeless and the greens were in fabulous condition.  Boston Golf Club does extremely well conditioning the course and keeping the areas around the greens firm and fast which was great.  I’d really like to see Kittansett browned out and fast!

Ambiance/Walk in the Park Kittansett Wins.  The location is phenomenal and It was one of my most pleasurable walks this year.  I got legitimately sad when I realized we were walking up to 17 green.  It is that special of a golf course and I would have no problem playing there every day.  

In the end, Boston Golf Club wins 5-3.  Despite getting more points, I would still put them at a 5-5 split if I had 10 rounds to play.  Both are fantastic golf courses and deserve the praise that they get!


Mark
« Last Edit: December 27, 2011, 04:58:44 PM by Mark McKeever »
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Willie_Dow

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Re: Golf Course Matchup- Kittansett Club and Boston Golf Club
« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2011, 03:50:10 PM »
Mark -

Did you see a bit of William Flynn design characteristics at Boston Golf ?  I am sure you know of Flynn's involvement at Kittansett.

Sorry you missed a windy day on Buzzards Bay.

Mark McKeever

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Re: Golf Course Matchup- Kittansett Club and Boston Golf Club
« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2011, 03:59:50 PM »
I felt like I was getting away with something playing Kittansett without more than a breeze.


As far as any Flynn-ish features at Boston, I can't really say that I saw much that directly relates the two.  When Rory asked which one I liked better, I found it a difficult question for that reason.

The holes flowed with the land extremely well at BGC which you see frequently at places like Lancaster or Lehigh.  Other than that, I can't think of much else.

Mark
Best MGA showers - Bayonne

"Dude, he's a total d***"

Willie_Dow

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Re: Golf Course Matchup- Kittansett Club and Boston Golf Club
« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2011, 04:22:40 PM »
Your comments regarding the par threes, questioning the 8th and 11th, which strangely are par threes at both courses, I think. 

The 8th at Kittansett is a good par three, but it was a great par three with the high faced bunker between the green and tee.  I think the ladies lowered the face to afford a better view of the green from their tee box.  Actually, I think the back tee was built up on another rock pile years ago, much like the back tee on number five.

I can't actually recall the 8th and 11th at Boston only having played there once.  But I remember thinking that Kittleman and Hanse might have had some Flynn design thoughts for the layout, over that rugged terrain.

Mark McKeever

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Re: Golf Course Matchup- Kittansett Club and Boston Golf Club
« Reply #4 on: December 23, 2011, 05:31:36 PM »
Good point Willie.  I forgot to mention hole 8 as a really solid par 3 as well.  The fescue was up around the bunkers and in front of the tee box.  Quite a bit of visual intimidation.  I can imagine the hole with a nice lip on the front bunker.  That would be pretty neat!

Also, I feel like I need to note the green on the par 3 11th.  Man was that cool with its two distinct sections and plenty of room to run it up as long as you can carry that nasty cross bunker!  Tim Martin remembers that one!

Mark

Best MGA showers - Bayonne

"Dude, he's a total d***"

Tim Martin

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Re: Golf Course Matchup- Kittansett Club and Boston Golf Club
« Reply #5 on: December 23, 2011, 05:45:34 PM »
Good point Willie.  I forgot to mention hole 8 as a really solid par 3 as well.  The fescue was up around the bunkers and in front of the tee box.  Quite a bit of visual intimidation.  I can imagine the hole with a nice lip on the front bunker.  That would be pretty neat!

Also, I feel like I need to note the green on the par 3 11th.  Man was that cool with its two distinct sections and plenty of room to run it up as long as you can carry that nasty cross bunker!  Tim Martin remembers that one!

Mark



Mark-I remember it was a lot easier to get in it than out of it. ;) A great hole on a course full of them.

Mark McKeever

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Re: Golf Course Matchup- Kittansett Club and Boston Golf Club
« Reply #6 on: December 23, 2011, 05:54:28 PM »
The par 3's really are fantastic out there.

Now that I think about it, hole 14 was sort of like an eden hole with the flashed small bunker pressed right up in the notch of the green

Mark
Best MGA showers - Bayonne

"Dude, he's a total d***"

Willie_Dow

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Re: Golf Course Matchup- Kittansett Club and Boston Golf Club
« Reply #7 on: December 25, 2011, 10:12:37 PM »
Back to wind.

Holes 13 and 14 at Kittansett are big players ! 

You guys got a good feel of thes two great courses, but I'd like your evaluation vs Eastward Ho ?

Mark McKeever

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Re: Golf Course Matchup- Kittansett Club and Boston Golf Club
« Reply #8 on: December 26, 2011, 12:15:48 PM »
Willie,

13 and 14 are solid holes and I would love to play these holes (the entire course for that matter) with the wind blowing the ball around more.  I imagine it would become quite the challenge!

Shifting gears, do you want the comparison of Eastward Ho! vs. BGC or Eastward Ho! vs. Kittansett?

Mark
Best MGA showers - Bayonne

"Dude, he's a total d***"

John Foley

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Re: Golf Course Matchup- Kittansett Club and Boston Golf Club
« Reply #9 on: December 26, 2011, 07:02:38 PM »
Have not played Boston Golf Club, but I am a huge fan of Kittansett. As Mark & Willie point out the par 3's are reallty speecial, As good as # 3 & #11 are I liked #8 alot. The length was enough , trouble certain, but the green sire seemed correctly sized to make it playable.

The 14th though, may be my favorite hole on the course. The old fescue covered mounds, the tough fall off int heack, they way it sitis next to 13 and then from the green shows you #15, it's really a great hole IMHO.
Integrity in the moment of choice

Willie_Dow

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Re: Golf Course Matchup- Kittansett Club and Boston Golf Club
« Reply #10 on: December 26, 2011, 08:05:32 PM »
Mark -

Your analysis and picture seems to be right on, in my view.  As a matter of fact, this is a good testimony to the greatness of Kittleman and Hanse, and their vision for keeping the intent of the mindset of the origional architect in tact.  Not trying to place it's self before itself.

Don't know about what happened in Chatham.

Willie
 


































































Mark McKeever

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Re: Golf Course Matchup- Kittansett Club and Boston Golf Club
« Reply #11 on: December 27, 2011, 09:51:29 AM »
Willie,

What happened in Chatham is pretty special as well.  Do you want me to compare EHCC to Boston or Kittansett?

Mark
« Last Edit: December 27, 2011, 09:53:02 AM by Mark McKeever »
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"Dude, he's a total d***"

Willie_Dow

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Re: Golf Course Matchup- Kittansett Club and Boston Golf Club
« Reply #12 on: December 27, 2011, 02:58:53 PM »
Mark -

I know both EH and Kittansett had a lot of tree clearing, which made great views of the water not seen for years.

This would make these courses superior to Boston Golf in my view, perhaps because my game at 83 years just ain't what it used to be.

Willie

BCrosby

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Re: Golf Course Matchup- Kittansett Club and Boston Golf Club
« Reply #13 on: December 27, 2011, 03:17:21 PM »
BGC is one of the best courses I have played built in the last 20 years. Really remarkable. It's an East Coast Sand Hills in some ways.

I've not played Kittansett, but if it's par 3's are better than BGC's, they must be stunning.

There are no ocean views at BGC. No mountain vistas. No sparkling lakes. Just one well designed hole after another that fully exploits its rolling, unpredicatable terrain.

Bob 

Mark McKeever

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Re: Golf Course Matchup- Kittansett Club and Eastward Ho! Country Club
« Reply #14 on: December 27, 2011, 04:57:58 PM »

***Mark's disclaimer*** Remember that these are both fantastic golf courses that anyone should RUN to play if given the opportunity.  I am simply splitting hairs here.  With that being said, please read the comparison below.


Kittansett and Eastward Ho!


Routing:  Kittansett wins.  I really like the way that you start on the bay then dive into the woods, only to come back to the bay in grand fashion (hole 15) then play in the exposed bayside for the duration of the round.  Eastward Ho's routing was pretty neat too, but I love the three distinct parts of the round that you are given at Kittansett.  I tend to need a second to think about a couple of the EHCC inland holes, but remember vividly every hole at Kittansett which I believe says something.

Land Movement: Eastward Ho wins.  Anyone who has been there in person knows how absolutely stunning the land forms are out there.  I have a hard time thinking of courses that have such bold land movement that was so well used.  Its absolutely marvelous to see.  There are speed slots that you can catch with a good drive on a number of holes and you really need to think your way around the course as a result of the land movement which says a lot.

Greens:  Eastward Ho wins.  The greens at both courses had subtle tricky contours, but Eastward Ho had a lot more bold green complexes in the mix.  You had to be very careful of where you put your second shot on a lot of the greens out there and knew hitting a lot of second shots that you "absolutely cannot miss there".  The greens were kept nice and firm which I really liked and it makes sense for such an exposed seaside course.  I'd love to play Kittansett in similar firm and fast conditions.
 
Par 3’s Kittansett wins in overtime.  Both courses set's of Par 3's were a highlight for me, so this one was tough.  I really liked the variety of clubs hit at Kittansett and the distinctly different challenge each hole presented. With that being said, Eastward Ho has a very good set of par 3's, but Kittansett's really are sensational.

Par 4’s Eastward Ho wins in overtime.  Some of the par 4's at Eastward Ho are just simply jaw dropping.  There is strategy everywhere on a lot of the holes because you have to pay close attention to the land movement.  You can hit what you think is a good drive, but it may come to rest 20 seconds later in a bad spot.  There are a good variety of lenghts for the par 4's, although most tend to be on the shorter side.  This is successfully remedied by offering choices and risks off the tee on many holes.

Par 5’s Eastward Ho wins.  I think the par 5's are extremely well done and are routed seamlessly with the land forms.  Each one offers a risky play off the tee which allows the player to find a better spot in two whether its a go at the green or a better spot to layup.

Conditioning Eastward Ho wins in overtime.  The course played nice and firm with great greens.  Kittansett has that rustic timeless feel to it which is also really neat, but overall conditioning was a bit better at Eastward Ho.  The grass surfaces were very consistent throughout the round.

Ambiance/Walk in the Park Kittansett wins.  I think that both courses are very visually stimulating and a pleasure to play, but in the end I can't help but think that Kittansett is one of the best walks in the country. 



Adding up the score Eastward Ho! wins 5-3 which interestingly enough follows the same pattern of scoring.  I felt like a few of these categories were a lot closer though.  I really had to think about some of them and really dig into details to draw ranks. 

Like I said with the Boston Golf Club comparison, I would probably split ten rounds dead even with these two awesome golf courses.  They (all 3) should be on everyone's must play list.

Mark
Best MGA showers - Bayonne

"Dude, he's a total d***"

Willie_Dow

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Re: Golf Course Matchup- Kittansett Club and Eastward Ho! Country Club
« Reply #15 on: December 27, 2011, 05:13:19 PM »
Mark

Kittansett had a very bad year a couple of years ago, weatherwise.  Burned out greens and salt water contamination of grasses.  John Kelly, super, formerly Merion East super, did an amazing turnaround last year, but it took some of the firm and fast conditionng away that will come back I'm sure.

That might make it a four four tie with EH !

Willie

Mark McKeever

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Re: Golf Course Matchup- Kittansett Club and Eastward Ho! Country Club
« Reply #16 on: December 27, 2011, 07:21:55 PM »
Agreed Willie!  I didnt know they had a rough year recently.  If the conditioning swayed one point, it ties both courses!

Mark
Best MGA showers - Bayonne

"Dude, he's a total d***"

Mark McKeever

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Re: Golf Course Matchup- Kittansett Club and Eastward Ho! Country Club
« Reply #17 on: March 07, 2012, 11:01:52 AM »
Bump due to recent EHCC discussions!

Mark
Best MGA showers - Bayonne

"Dude, he's a total d***"

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