[John Crowley]

Anyone know much about the recent course changes at Interlachen C C? Such as, was restoration to Ross drawings a factor? What professional golf course architects were interviewed and who ultimately supervised the work? What changes were made?

[Jason Topp]

Brian Silva.  Changing 11 from a par 5 to 4 is reportedly what Ross originally intended.

[Patrick Hodgdon]

Anyone know much about the recent course changes at Interlachen C C? Such as, was restoration to Ross drawings a factor? What professional golf course architects were interviewed and who ultimately supervised the work? What changes were made?

Hi John, having caddied at ICC for 14 summers I'd be happy to give you a run down. I can also try and find some of my pictures.

I'm not sure who was interviewed but I assume Pritchard who I believe did both Minneapolis GC and Minikahda GC nearby around the same time might have been. In any case Brian Silva did an extensive restoration to all the bunkers to pull them back into play more and also to angle them more to be perpendicular rather than parallel. They also added more traditional grass faces to the bunkers. Also the greens were expanded back to original size per Ross's drawings. A handful of new back tees were also added. The changes drastically changed the course for the better, although the new bunkers added 1-2 shots in terms of difficulty so that the higher handicap members complain about them. Included in the work was a fairly extensive tree removal program  (about 750) most notably clearing out everything behind the testy short par-4 10th hole that makes it an excellent skyline green on the uphill approach shot. They could  easily take  out another 500 trees imo and improve it even more.

After about 5 years of debate they finally changed the  snaking par-5 11th hole into an excellent par-4 by taking down 5 trees on the far side of  the lake  and adding a bunker on the backside of the new driving zone landing area about 250-280 out through the fairway. I am unaware of the argument that Ross intended it to be a 4 (I can double check his drawing but I'm almost positive it was always intended it  to be a 5). However Silva  and just about everyone they brought in for an opinion (including Tom Lehman) agreed that it  should e changed to a 4. The black tees play from the original tee box at 475 while the middle tees are played primarily from a new tee box slightly left (making it less of a dogleg) at 420 yards. I'd say the hole plays about a half a shot easier than it  did before (from about 5 to 4.5 if I had to guess on the scoring averages).

 

[Jason Topp]

Anyone know much about the recent course changes at Interlachen C C? Such as, was restoration to Ross drawings a factor? What professional golf course architects were interviewed and who ultimately supervised the work? What changes were made?

I am unaware of the argument that Ross intended it to be a 4 (I can double check his drawing but I'm almost positive it was always intended it  to be a 5). However Silva  and just about everyone they brought in for an opinion (including Tom Lehman) agreed that it  should e changed to a 4. The black tees play from the original tee box at 475 while the middle tees are played primarily from a new tee box slightly left (making it less of a dogleg) at 420 yards. I'd say the hole plays about a half a shot easier than it  did before (from about 5 to 4.5 if I had to guess on the scoring averages).

 

Patrick - my source was an article in tthe Minnesota Golfer from earlier this year.

[Patrick Hodgdon]

Anyone know much about the recent course changes at Interlachen C C? Such as, was restoration to Ross drawings a factor? What professional golf course architects were interviewed and who ultimately supervised the work? What changes were made?

I am unaware of the argument that Ross intended it to be a 4 (I can double check his drawing but I'm almost positive it was always intended it  to be a 5). However Silva  and just about everyone they brought in for an opinion (including Tom Lehman) agreed that it  should e changed to a 4. The black tees play from the original tee box at 475 while the middle tees are played primarily from a new tee box slightly left (making it less of a dogleg) at 420 yards. I'd say the hole plays about a half a shot easier than it  did before (from about 5 to 4.5 if I had to guess on the scoring averages).

 

Patrick - my source was an article in tthe Minnesota Golfer from earlier this year.

Thanks Jason, I hadn't heard that in all the many discussions but I will certainly check on it.

[John Crowley]

Thanks Patrick and Jason - John

[Patrick Hodgdon]

Anyone know much about the recent course changes at Interlachen C C? Such as, was restoration to Ross drawings a factor? What professional golf course architects were interviewed and who ultimately supervised the work? What changes were made?

I am unaware of the argument that Ross intended it to be a 4 (I can double check his drawing but I'm almost positive it was always intended it  to be a 5). However Silva  and just about everyone they brought in for an opinion (including Tom Lehman) agreed that it  should e changed to a 4. The black tees play from the original tee box at 475 while the middle tees are played primarily from a new tee box slightly left (making it less of a dogleg) at 420 yards. I'd say the hole plays about a half a shot easier than it  did before (from about 5 to 4.5 if I had to guess on the scoring averages).

 

Patrick - my source was an article in tthe Minnesota Golfer from earlier this year.

Thanks Jason, I hadn't heard that in all the many discussions but I will certainly check on it.

http://msp.imirus.com/Mpowered/book/vmga11/i2/p28#22

Here's a link to the article Jason mentioned. It pretty clearly points to the fact that Ross intended it  to be a par-4. I'll see if  I can upload a copy of Ross's drawing as well.

[John_Conley]

Because it was so reachable, about 465 a little uphill, it always seemed like a "hard par 4" in the parlance of one member.  Calling it a par 4 didn't work because of the shape of the fairway and location of trees on the far side of the pond.  To play to the 200 yard mark you kind of hit at the trees and hoped the shot wasn't hung up too much.

In the 1993 Walker Cup it played as a par 4, from the red tee.  This didn't really change the fact there wasn't a lot of room to land a tee shot.  It altered the angle of attack slightly, but playing down the fairway line just meant going through.

Removal of the trees is key.  I'd like to see photos.  A neat hole I bet.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Coincidently, this course came up for discussion today with three other fellows I'm friendly with.

One of them told me that the finishing hole is one of the most difficult in golf.

How similar is Brian Silva's work at Interlachen to Ron Prichard's work at Minikahda and Minneapolis ?

[John_Conley]

One of them told me that the finishing hole is one of the most difficult in golf.

Pat, the closer certainly is a doozy.  There is one bunker, but it's pretty much out of play.  About 60-70 yards from the green maybe?  You can't reach it from the tee.  The regular tee is about 385 with a back tee of around 400.  There may be a new modern tee behind that.  A lot of trees as hazards; while not loved here, they are a very effective hazard.  Drive it right and you are probably in jail.

The green is like a bowl-shaped sombero resting on an incline.  The front 1/3rd is worthless and balls just roll back.  The back 1/3rd will also roll balls back, at least these collect in the middle 1/3rd where it is cuppable. 

I'm sure there are many closers that are more difficult.  It is a challenge and 4 is certainly a good score.

[PCCraig]

John Crowley,

Good to see you posting here!

Pat Mucci,

The 18th hole is hard because the green is outrageously difficult. When I played it in early July, I was 20ft left of the pin in two, and short-sided myself. I ended up making a 7 (ouch).

 

[Patrick Hodgdon]

Coincidently, this course came up for discussion today with three other fellows I'm friendly with.

One of them told me that the finishing hole is one of the most difficult in golf.

How similar is Brian Silva's work at Interlachen to Ron Prichard's work at Minikahda and Minneapolis ?

I can't speak for Minikahda but Prichard's work at Minneapolis looks very similar and as far as I know the exact same type of work (tree removal, bunkers pulled/angled back in/greens expanded) was done at both ICC and MGC. Having played all 3 this summer, Pat Craig might be able to speak to the look of Minikahda's work too.

The 18th at ICC now plays 440 from the new back tee (the 3rd they've added in 10 years IIRC) but almost always plays into the wind and the second shot as noted also plays 10-15 yards uphill. It's common for me to advise someone to hit a 180 club uphill into the wind from 150 out. As John noted the green is cut into 3rds and the ball does not sit on the top or bottom 3rd. I would also point out that the middle, cuppable 3rd of the green has some of the most subtle breaks of any green on the course and MANY a 3 footer to win or tie a match has been missed by even the best putters in the club. If you miss the green short it is a difficult up and down as you have to chip it off an uphill lie and either judge the distance perfectly to a pin just above the edge of the front and middle 3rd tiers, otherwise you go above the pin and leave a downhill putt, or you play it up off the top 3rd of the green and let it roll back toward the pin which is also extremely difficult to judge the right weight on. Not to mention anything that lands over the green is a flop and a prayer that it finds a way to stay on the middle tier with it almost always rolling down to the bottom.

From the back of the regular men's tee at 400 yards (new 440 yard tee is back and to the right making the slight dogleg around the overhanging tree more pronounced.



From about 150 yards out


From 70 yards out


Looking back from above the green


A side view of the green that doesn't do show the severity perfectly but everything to the right of the large tree trunk in the back will roll back and everything left of the far left of the shadow will fall down to the front fringe/rough.

[Dan Kelly]

Because it was so reachable, about 465 a little uphill, it always seemed like a "hard par 4" in the parlance of one member.  Calling it a par 4 didn't work because of the shape of the fairway and location of trees on the far side of the pond.  To play to the 200 yard mark you kind of hit at the trees and hoped the shot wasn't hung up too much.

In the 1993 Walker Cup it played as a par 4, from the red tee.  This didn't really change the fact there wasn't a lot of room to land a tee shot.  It altered the angle of attack slightly, but playing down the fairway line just meant going through.

Removal of the trees is key.  I'd like to see photos.  A neat hole I bet.

I drove between Nos. 11 and 18 yesterday, on Interlachen Boulevard, headed west.

Took a good look at the missing trees, and then a good look at the 11th green -- and thought:

I wonder how many *more* balls are flying out onto Interlachen Boulevard, now that 11 is a 4 instead of a 5.

Can you confirm (or refute) my suspicion, PatricK?

As for No. 18:

Possibly the greatest shot I've ever seen was hit on that hole, by Tim Herron during an alternate-shot match of the Walker Cup in 1993.

Herron drove down the middle.

John Harris hit a horrifyingly pulled short-iron way left of the green. Terrible, terrible shot.

Herron, with trees blocking his way, hit an unbelievable (then, and still) flop shot over the trees that landed like the proverbial butterfly with sore feet, a ways above the hole, and trickled down, down, down to just a few feet from the hole.

Harris made the putt. Match won.

[John_Conley]

Dan, Brian Gay rallied from dormie with 4 or 5 holes left to earn a draw with Padraig Harrington at the same Walker Cup.  On the final hole he was short of the green in two in the long rough, probably because his approach came up a little short and rolled back.  Faced with the difficult chip, he actually hit it past the hole and let it settle back in that middle third.  Putt holed for 4, Paddy somehow bogied, and it was another interesting finish on that green.

For the Solheim Cup the 9s were reversed, making this the 9th hole and the short par 5 an exciting finisher of a different sort.

[Rick Shefchik]

It was #9 at the Women's U.S. Open, too. I watched Michelle Wie make a 9 there:

Her approach shot finished short, in the long rough on the slope in front of the green, and she bladed the pitch over the green in the thick rough above the hole -- absolute death location. Trying to be as delicate as possible, she stubbed her nexst chip, moving the ball a couple of inches. Then she landed her next shot on the green and watched it run off the front and back into the long rough on the hillside. She hit a poor chip from there and three-putted for the nine. I don't think I've ever seen a woman golfer look angrier as she stomped past me to the 10th (1st) tee.

That hole can rip you apart.

[Patrick Hodgdon]

Because it was so reachable, about 465 a little uphill, it always seemed like a "hard par 4" in the parlance of one member.  Calling it a par 4 didn't work because of the shape of the fairway and location of trees on the far side of the pond.  To play to the 200 yard mark you kind of hit at the trees and hoped the shot wasn't hung up too much.

In the 1993 Walker Cup it played as a par 4, from the red tee.  This didn't really change the fact there wasn't a lot of room to land a tee shot.  It altered the angle of attack slightly, but playing down the fairway line just meant going through.

Removal of the trees is key.  I'd like to see photos.  A neat hole I bet.

I drove between Nos. 11 and 18 yesterday, on Interlachen Boulevard, headed west.

Took a good look at the missing trees, and then a good look at the 11th green -- and thought:

I wonder how many *more* balls are flying out onto Interlachen Boulevard, now that 11 is a 4 instead of a 5.

Can you confirm (or refute) my suspicion, PatricK?

As for No. 18:

Possibly the greatest shot I've ever seen was hit on that hole, by Tim Herron during an alternate-shot match of the Walker Cup in 1993.

Herron drove down the middle.

John Harris hit a horrifyingly pulled short-iron way left of the green. Terrible, terrible shot.

Herron, with trees blocking his way, hit an unbelievable (then, and still) flop shot over the trees that landed like the proverbial butterfly with sore feet, a ways above the hole, and trickled down, down, down to just a few feet from the hole.

Harris made the putt. Match won.

Unfortunately that shot will never be repeated (even if it could) as they have cut down or lost (to lightening, etc.) most of those trees left of the 18th green (including the one I mention in that photo). I was lucky enough to have a member hit over there once and show me where it was and just how difficult it was. I think he even suggested it deserved a plaque just as much as Jone's lily-pad shot does. Harris also confirmed a year a two ago to me that it was still the greatest golf shot he's ever seen hit.

As for balls going O.B. on 11 onto ICC Blvd. I would have to refute your assumption. It was extremely rare (2-3 per 125 rounds a summer) before and in 35 or so rounds this summer I've seen one hit the fence on the second bounce and that's about it. With the trees removed and the regular tees playing from the 420-yard tee the approaches have averaged less (most in the 160-200 range) and with it playing uphill and where the trees on the right are you have to hit a shot 40-yards fading right with an extra club or two of length to hit it out over the fence. I've done it myself and certainly have seen it but it doesn't happen as often as you might think there.

[Dan Kelly]

Harris also confirmed a year a two ago to me that it was still the greatest golf shot he's ever seen hit.

I'm in good company, then!

(Thanks for the refutation. That green looks SO snug back in that corner of the property.)

[John Crowley]

On Mucci's question about Prichard's work at Minneapolis Golf Club compared to his work at Minikahda Club:
 Ron created master plans for both courses but only Minikahda retained him to supervise the restoration work. MGC did not retain Ron for the actual course work. They followed his plan fairly closely "on paper".

 However, as some of us know, good golf course architecture is not simple adherence to a two dimensional plan. The aesthetics of bunker design is on a much higher plane at the restored Minkahda.

The bunkers at MGC, while constructed well technically, are virtually the same cookie cutters that the contractor has built several times over in other work on Minnesota courses. Ron, being an artist and professional golf course architect with a strong background in the study of classic era design, would have created a wider variety of shapes and tailored each bunker to the topography in which it was placed.  He would have tweaked the placement of some bunkers from his paper plan once he got into the field work.

The recent work at MGC is decent - but not nearly what it could have been.

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