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Chris Buie

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Set your DVR - Pine Valley Film - 2am Monday 9/12
« on: September 10, 2011, 03:23:21 PM »
The old Shell's Wonderful World of Golf film with Nelson v. Littler.
2am Monday on the Golf Channel.
Thought you'd want to know.
1962

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Set your DVR - Pine Valley Film - 2am Monday 9/12
« Reply #1 on: September 10, 2011, 04:54:49 PM »
Chris,

Is this available on DVD ?

David Harshbarger

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Re: Set your DVR - Pine Valley Film - 2am Monday 9/12
« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2011, 05:00:21 PM »
Episode, and series, set to record.

Thanks, and a dram to you!
The trouble with modern equipment and distance—and I don't see anyone pointing this out—is that it robs from the player's experience. - Mickey Wright

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: Set your DVR - Pine Valley Film - 2am Monday 9/12
« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2011, 05:11:43 PM »
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Marty Bonnar

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Re: Set your DVR - Pine Valley Film - 2am Monday 9/12
« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2011, 07:29:25 PM »
I know one or two people who have it on dvd. I'd be prepared to bet they'd be delighted to let you have a copy if you drop them a PM.
best,
FBD.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Andy Stamm

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Re: Set your DVR - Pine Valley Film - 2am Monday 9/12
« Reply #6 on: September 10, 2011, 08:09:21 PM »
Chris,

Is this available on DVD ?

Available on DVD here. And, it's one of the few old ones for the lower price.

http://www.networkinterstate.com/sho/videos.html

Mark McKeever

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Re: Set your DVR - Pine Valley Film - 2am Monday 9/12
« Reply #7 on: September 10, 2011, 08:49:55 PM »
I'd love to get a copy of this....I just saw the first 10 minute clip on youtube.

Mark
Best MGA showers - Bayonne

"Dude, he's a total d***"

Carl Johnson

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Re: Set your DVR - Pine Valley Film - 2am Monday 9/12
« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2011, 09:48:03 PM »
A related item: the book Gene Sarazen and Shell's Wonderful World of Golf, "by Al Barkow with Mary Ann Sarazen [Gene's daughter].  Among other things, the book notes that it was Sarazen's fame that enabled him to get Pine Valley to permit the Nelson/Littler match filmed there.  The book also points out that the Nelson/Littler match was the first match filmed for Shell's Wonderful World of Golf, although it was not the first shown on TV.  My copy of the VHS tape lists it as number 3 in the series.  There are some other interesting tidbits, and controversy, about the filming of the match that are covered in the book, but in deference to those who may want to read it themselves, I'll stop here.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Set your DVR - Pine Valley Film - 2am Monday 9/12
« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2011, 09:53:35 PM »
Carl,

I had heard that the match was orchestrated in that bad shots were allowed to be replayed.

Is that what you were alluding to ?

Carl Johnson

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Re: Set your DVR - Pine Valley Film - 2am Monday 9/12
« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2011, 12:24:44 PM »
Carl,

I had heard that the match was orchestrated in that bad shots were allowed to be replayed.

Is that what you were alluding to ?

Pat, well, since you've asked.  To answer your question about the orchestration and bad shots being replayed, according to the book, "No."  However, I can see that what did happen in the filming (according to the book) could be morphed into such an account.  The gist of the "controversy" was this.

The PV match was the first filmed and the TV people had no experience in filming golf and knew little about the game.  Nelson hit the first drive, a good one, but the cameraman picked up the ball and threw it back to Nelson, asking him to hit another because the camera did not catch the ball flight and landing.  Instead, Nelson invoked the "outside agency" rule, put the ball back in the fairway as best he could where it had stopped, and moved on.  This was the only time something like that happened (according to the book, again).

However, the cameramen continued to be unable to follow the ball in the air.  After the match was finished, the TV people decided they needed more film.  Leo Fraser, who owned the Atlantic City Country Club, was then brought in to hit drivers (only from the tees) to the approximate spots where Herb Wind's notes indicated the drives had landed (Wind was the expert consultant hired for the series).  The cameramen got the knack of following those shots, and it is those ball flights, and landings, or most of them, that are shown in the film.  The same make-up treatment did not happen to approach shots.

When sportswriter Joe Williams of the New York World-Telegram learned what had happened, he made a big fuss in his column about how the whole match was illegitimate, that you couldn't trust TV guys and so on, all on account of the "ex post facto" filming of ball flights.  According to the authors, Williams and other sportswriters felt threatened by TV.  (Personally, I never heard of Williams.)  Nelson defended the match against this charge, saying it had all been played strictly according to the rules.  As some of the TV people say today, "You decide."

I also recall reading that the match took two full days.  They only had a couple of large cameras (early days), which had to be moved and reset for each shot.  Littler and Nelson had very long waits from shot to shot.

Finally, all I know is what this book says.  I wasn't there, of course, and haven't really been interested in getting into the situation further.

By the way, the book has lots of other interesting stories about the Shell series, but it is by no means a history of the Shell series, or even close to it.  Rather, it is essentially a book of memories of her dad by Mary Ann Sarazen, many of which involve his job of hosting the Shell shows.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2011, 02:52:10 PM by Carl Johnson »

JSlonis

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Re: Set your DVR - Pine Valley Film - 2am Monday 9/12
« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2011, 12:41:03 PM »
I noticed an oddity while watching a replay of this match...

Take note of the lie of Littler's ball over the first green.  When they first show it, it looks like it's sitting in a sandy area in the rough with not a great lie and when they next show him hitting his pitch shot, the ball looks to be in a much better position with grass around it.

Ben Kodadek

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Re: Set your DVR - Pine Valley Film - 2am Monday 9/12
« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2011, 12:56:31 PM »
Agreed.  Littler's approach at 1 clearly came to rest on hardpan.  They actually showed it three times.  As he hits his 3rd, he has a very nice, cushy lie.  It's at least 5 feet from where they showed coming to rest originally. 

Additionally, it appears as though he builit a stance in the bunker prior to hitting his 4th shot on the 5th hole, when he kicks a rock out under his left foot. 

Andy Stamm

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Re: Set your DVR - Pine Valley Film - 2am Monday 9/12
« Reply #13 on: September 12, 2011, 03:04:39 PM »
I've read the book as well and the summary above sums it up well. The matches were played according to the rules, although what's shown on tv is not necessarily the actual shot. The Pine Valley was the worst in this regard as it was the first match. And this match has by far the most holes where they don't show any action, instead just using hole map and describing the action. There are plenty of bad shots and indeed bad rounds that would probably have been edited out if that were going on. In this match, Littler suffers mightily on the front; I don't think that they'd have scripted that.

After the controversy in the press, they were apparently very sticky about the rules. The only incident that I know of where they were not followed to the letter is that in the Banff match (smashing golf by Stan Leonard, by the way). The players were allowed to hit a few balls to stay loose between shots. There was a snowstorm during the match, and it was very cold. As an aside, apparently they didn't get a shot of Burke (I think) putting out, that the producer really wanted. So, they sent a body double out months later and that's what you see. But Burke did putt out and made the putt.

I think the real critique is not that they didn't follow the rules, but that they were very much a television production first and a golf match second. As mentioned, there were a few huge cameras that had to be moved around. The process was so slow that only nine holes could be completed in a day. So obviously, the players had a tough time finding a rhythm standing around all day. And this process was hidden from the viewer and the match presented as if it had happened over the course of a few hours. You can often see great disparities in shadows and weather that indicate this. So in that sense, the matches weren't totally genuine.

The flip side is that the series revolutionized golf coverage. And when the technology came along (shortly thereafter) to present live golf this way, we got very good coverage for all events.

Mark Saltzman

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Re: Set your DVR - Pine Valley Film - 2am Monday 9/12
« Reply #14 on: September 20, 2011, 11:39:33 PM »
Enjoying this now.

The commentator said "a 250 yard drive at Pine Valley is like a 275 yard drive anywhere else."  What did he mean by this?

Mark Saltzman

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Re: Set your DVR - Pine Valley Film - 2am Monday 9/12
« Reply #15 on: September 20, 2011, 11:42:33 PM »
A further statement from the commentator, "this new generation of golfers... give them a sand iron and a putter and they look like magicians."

My how things have changed... short game is hardly what I think of when I think of the current new generation of golfers.

JESII

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Re: Set your DVR - Pine Valley Film - 2am Monday 9/12
« Reply #16 on: September 20, 2011, 11:44:00 PM »
Air's heavy around here.

Sean Leary

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Re: Set your DVR - Pine Valley Film - 2am Monday 9/12
« Reply #17 on: September 21, 2011, 12:41:51 AM »
Sarazen says it was bermuda fairways. Was it back then?

Sean Leary

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Re: Set your DVR - Pine Valley Film - 2am Monday 9/12
« Reply #18 on: September 21, 2011, 12:47:38 AM »
When was the alternate green put in on 9? Looks like it was there during this match.

Also 10 green sure looks different than it does now. DA too.

JESII

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Re: Set your DVR - Pine Valley Film - 2am Monday 9/12
« Reply #19 on: September 21, 2011, 09:06:00 AM »
Not sure...I was reliving a day about 20 years ago when a young phenom by the name Ted Oh came through Philadelphia for a couple tournaments not too long after playing in the US Open at about 15 years old. We played a practice round at one of the courses hosting the US Amateur Qualifier and after hitting about his 12th approach shot short he asked "Does the ball not go as far here?"...I chuckled and just said "the air's heavy!". What the hell do I know but it must go further somewhere else...

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