Debunking another MYTH

[JC Jones]

Pat,

I'm 31, married, w/ 3 kids under 7.  Please tell me what it is, exactly, that I don't understand about "today's young couples" and the preciousness of time?

It is quite easy to move along at a brisk, 3 hour pace when someone else is carrying your bag and raking your bunkers.  Spend some time at public courses with "average golfers" and you'll see how a 3 hour round finds itself north of 4 hours.  Certainly it isn't ideal, but it is better than no golf at all.

Also, I find it funny that you start your post showing concern for "young couples" yet you end it bashing those same couples as part of the "me" generation.  You think the entire blame falls on the golfer.  Why don't you blame the architects of today's public courses?  Many of them are so penal or have so much tall grass or forest 5 yards off the fairway that the average golfer is spent looking for golf balls (either theirs or a playing partner's) on every hole.  I played Arcadia Bluffs, a Golf Digest Top 100 public course on Thursday; 5.5 hour round.  I played it with just my buddy, and we are known to get around courses in 2.5-3.25 hours (we played 9 yesterday morning in 1.25hrs), we watched the group in front of us spend several minutes on each hole looking for balls.  You know what, I don't blame them.  They paid $200 to play a course that some magazine tells them is great (it sucks and is a train wreck, by the way) and they are just trying to get around it and have a good time.  Nobody has a good time losing a dozen golf balls. 

This past Monday, I played a 9 hole municipal course with zero tall grass and 3 of us walked it.  The third person was a local guy, bartender, wearing a t-shirt and cargo shorts who had paid $270 for his annual pass.  We walked the 9 holes, carrying our own bags, in less than 1.5hrs.  We never had to stop to search for last balls.

But, back to my original point: I played 18 at Hidden Creek last October with a friend.  The two of us walked 18 in less than 2.75hrs.  Then again we played a course with generous fairways and had a caddy who carried our bags, raked our bunkers and bird-dogged all of our errant shots.  Fast golf was ideal and enjoyable that day. 

So, there are several factors that go in to a 5 hour round besides just the "me" generation (which I always think is funny to hear from someone your age, likely the child of a WW2 vet, and a member of the generation currently in charge of the USA these days making sure they get theirs while my generation is left picking up the bill and cleaning up the spilled oil).  Neverthless, if you have time issues at Mountain Ridge then you have membership committee issues and need to kick out the 75 - 90 year old golfers who hit it 10 feet and re-evaluate anyone who you admitted that doesn't understand how to play the game.  But don't pretend you are going to solve 5 hour rounds for the average golfer while playing NGLA and Pine Valley with caddies lugging around your clubs.  Moreover, don't tell a family man who doesn't play golf several times a week, but rather, once or twice a month, whether he can or cannot enjoy his time on the golf course.  Like I said, an extra hour on the golf course is better than an extra hour JUST about anywhere else and sometimes it isn't so bad and sometimes, knowing the responsibilities you have else where in life you find that extra hour of relaxation to be quite precious.

[Niall C]

Pat,

Thanks for the lecture, but what you and others don't seem to understand is the following.

Once you set the pace at 3.0 to 3.25 hours, the course can never recover and achieve 2.5 hour rounds.

If you play in 3 hours, nice and comfortable for you, you wreck the day for every group behind you that wants to play in 2.25 or 2.5  or 2.75 hours.  That's selfish on your part.  There's no reason why a round should take you more than 2.5-2.75  hours.  

....very, very funny, and also very perceptive. As someone in their mid forties who only ever has a caddy once when playing the Old Course, and rarely ever had a buggy other than when abroad, I am well used to carrying my own clubs, raking my own bunkers, replacing my own divots and repairing my own (and others) pitchmarks, and doing all that while getting round the course in what most here would probably think a reasonable time.

I do find however that over time its taking me longer to play my round of golf. Why that is I'm not exactly sure, it could be playing more modern courses which are longer and with greater green to tee walks plays a part. Maybe's its because I aint quite as fit as I was or maybe its because of pace of play set by others. Now personally speaking I don't mind someone taking 5 hours plus to play a round of golf, for whatever reason. I do however mind them doing it in front of me for 18 holes. If all golfers would accept that others have the right to play at whatever pace they deem appropriate for them, and to let them do so, we would all be better off. Why wait until you've lost a ball or lost a hole on the group in front before letting other, obviously faster groups behind through ? After all is that not just good manners, and isn't good manners what etiquette is all about ?

Niall

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

Not every culture perceives time in the same manner. Few higher minds if any envy those on the clock.

Pat cannot be reasoned with.  5 hours spent on the golf course is better than 5 hours spent doing much of anything else.

JC,

In one post you tell us that 5 hours on the golf course is  enjoyable and on the other, how you play in under 3 hours, which is what I've advocated.

Which is it, the 5 hour round or the 3 hour round.

As to blaming the architect, you have a choice on the courses you play.
Many, have been there for decades and decades and present no impediment to fast play.

As to carrying my own bag and playing public courses I did all of that and I did it when bags were big heavy bags, not the lightweight versions of today.  And, I caddied.  Carrying doubles with those big heavy bags, so don't pretend to tell me what I should experience.

I'm off to play, be back later.

[JC Jones]

Patrick,

Not every culture perceives time in the same manner. Few higher minds if any envy those on the clock.

Pat cannot be reasoned with.  5 hours spent on the golf course is better than 5 hours spent doing much of anything else.

JC,

In one post you tell us that 5 hours on the golf course is  enjoyable and on the other, how you play in under 3 hours, which is what I've advocated.

Which is it, the 5 hour round or the 3 hour round.

As to blaming the architect, you have a choice on the courses you play.
Many, have been there for decades and decades and present no impediment to fast play.

As to carrying my own bag and playing public courses I did all of that and I did it when bags were big heavy bags, not the lightweight versions of today.  And, I caddied.  Carrying doubles with those big heavy bags, so don't pretend to tell me what I should experience.

I'm off to play, be back later.

Your selective reading causes you to miss the point.  There are a ton of reasons why 5 hour rounds happen, not just the ones you articulate and the 5 hour round is not the ideal but it isn't something to throw constant temper tantrums about.

[David_Elvins]

I'm off to play, be back later.

My gca clock says you posted this at 9.12am.  A 3 hour round, half hour trip each way, 1/4 hour warm up and half hour lunch means I am expecting your next reply to be at 2pm.  

[Jim Hoak]

One of the best pieces of advice on measuring distances I've ever heard came from Jackie Burke--look at a shot and feel what club you could easily hit over the green, then take one club less and go.  Easy and quick.  Smart man.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Slow play is just caused by people that play slower than others, slow players are often good players, good players are often good players because they take greater care, great care can include many things but largely chipping and putting can account for a great deal of what others may consider lost time. Very little time is spent on tee shots, most golfers pretty much have that bit sussed already. Tell a good golfer its 154 to carry the bunker, 162 to the pin 173 is trouble, he will quickly know what he needs to hit, if he does not have the info he might take more care in figuring it out, some in the older days pre this info would walk half way up to a 100 yard shot, that took time. As soon as you add competition conditions to a round of golf it adds time, because they take more care.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Adrian

While you make a fair point, I would add that there are more underlying problems. The first one being the slow player, I think you have been generous in your description of slow players. Now if they are slow for medical reasons we should accommodate them (as they should accommodate us by letting us play through). However, many slow players have no regards for their fellow golfers; they piss on Course Etiquette and undermine the game in so doing so. Therefore why do we tolerate these selfish individuals who care not for the game, their friend, others players and ultimately upon the game itself.  There is no excuse for slow play; perhaps a threat of a ban starting with 3 months would be far more appropriate than a fine. In short if they move on the better it is, in the hope that the next Course will also be firm with slow players.

As for distance, you again make a fair point “Tell a good golfer its 154 to carry the bunker, 162 to the pin 173 is trouble, he will quickly know what he needs to hit”, however if a good golfer he will already know the distance and selected his club by just looking at the flag. It’s the weak player that need the reassurance of distance aids, his/her inability to understand distance or simply believing that its easier using an outside aid. Whatever, their method, the loss to their game and future ability to judge through their eyes is affected so is that inward warmth (knowledge that you worked it out yourself before even arriving at the next shot). Instinctive reaction always trumps the use of foreign gadgets, even markers as your eyes have to seek them out.

Do nothing is not a option, what’s that saying “Give an inch and they will take a Mile” sums up the problem be it distance , carts, special putters or high tech equipment in general, hence why we need leadership and a  strong Governing Body – perhaps one day

If you see a slow player be he at The Open or your local club, do not ignore him/her as they will be ruining someone's day, most certainly if they are not waving through faster players. They are very selfish parasites of the game and clubs need to take action, so please make them aware of these individuals.

Melvyn 

[Bill Gayne]

I see golfers shooting 60 yard flip shots........ 3 times, just to make sure.

Pat,

I have seen plenty of golfers in the past pace out 60 yard shots.  Tell me that isn't slow? 


The best thing about this thread is that you have once again manged to get 3 pages (and counting) of largely superficial responses by posting some superficial comments about how things were better in the old days.  You would think we all would have learnt by now. 
David,

The truth is that the pace of play is worse now than it was "in the old days"

And, it's worse despite all of the letters and signs advising golfers to play faster, it's worse despite all the distance devices which are claimed to save time.

There is NO reason that a foursome should play in more than 3 hours on a golf course without an unusual configuration/situations.

I have two very dear friends, both have been members of their respective clubs for over 20 years.
Yet, on every shot they ask the caddy for yardage, which direction the wind is blowing (can you imagine that, they need the caddy to tell them or confirm to them, which way the wind is blowing, as if it changes every 15 seconds,  The ask which way the putt breaks, whether it's uphill or downhill or flat, and on and on and on.  And, they're rarely ready to play when it's their turn.

Why do golfers wait until it's their turn before they begin analyzing their next shot ?

And, when you tell them to speed up, they either tell you they're not slow, or that they need to take their time because each shot is important.
One of them, refuses to pick up.  He can be on his way to a 12, but, he's going to finish, even though, other members of his group have already finished the hole and their score will be used in the match he's involved in.

Another fellow, also a friend, shoots every distance there is, even if he's standing on a marked sprinkler head, on a course he's been playing for 25 years.

The "culture" of golf has been corrupted by the "me" generation.

Fast play is the exception, not the rule, and it should be the other way around.

Those requiring a constant data feed are the "Prima Donna's" of golf. and as someone stated, their punishment should be playing behind themselves.

[/quote]

I couldn't have said it better myself. 100% agree!

[Patrick_Mucci]

I'm off to play, be back later.

My gca clock says you posted this at 9.12am.  A 3 hour round, half hour trip each way, 1/4 hour warm up and half hour lunch means I am expecting your next reply to be at 2pm.  

David,

You have to remember, I can only play as fast as the group in front of me.

I played OK today, drove it well, putted it well, but, I was just a bit off on my irons, I kept hitting them a little heavy, and came up about a club to a club and a half short on about six approach shots, so, after lunch, I decided to hit balls for about 45 minutes.

Then, I went and putted for about 20 minutes.

I used a new (old) putter today because I was lined up left of target and couldn't see it, so I went to one of those things that looks like a spider or sophisticated TV antenna, with good results.

My eyes have me lined up to the right on full shots and to the left on putts, so, it's a constant battle to get myself aligned propertly on every shot.
I seem to align myself well with my driver, only missing one fairway today, because I use the mowing patterns in the tee to align myself down the fairway.  Unfortunately, the mowing patterns in the fairway are of no use.  Although, I hit the best 2-iron I've hit in a decade on # 18 today.

I also had to respond to some TEPaul emails about PV.

Then, I had to do some grocery shopping, pick up the NY Times, WSJ, Star Ledger and NY Post.

As I pulled into my driveway, two fawns were ambling along and eating my neighbors shrubs, so I sat and watched them for awhile.
They sure are pretty looking.

P.S.  Noone in our group used or owns a measuring device.

One of the members of our group commented on how unique golf is, how you can attempt to meet the mental and physical challenge that the golf course offers you, while at the same time, enjoying your company.

[Patrick_Mucci]

There are a ton of reasons why 5 hour rounds happen, not just the ones you articulate and the 5 hour round is not the ideal but it isn't something to throw constant temper tantrums about.

JC, what you don't understand is that without criticism, progress is impossible.

It's been my experience that slow players are either in denial about their slow play, or, see nothing wrong with playing at "their" pace.

My most recent experiences were with golfers using measuring devices, delaying the round while doing so, and not getting the incremental results you'd expect by knowing the "exact" distance.

As to throwing temper tantrums, you're either hallucinating or fabricating, take your choice.

[Kyle Harris]

Pat,

Bad habits are the cause of slow play, not the devices. Good habits are the cause of fast play, not the devices. If the golfers you played with had quick pace of play habits, the range finder would not enter into this equation. This works both ways, so the original intent of your thread is valid - that is the myth of faster play through distance aids.

Slow players will play slow no matter what toys they have to fill the downtime, and that is really the categorical base issue with slow play - golfers do little to minimize the downtime while playing. For me, the cart is a much bigger culprit than any distance aid. Carts simply increase the amount of downtime sitting and doing nothing (as opposed to the pacing of the downtime offered by walking). Carts have taken away the time a golfer uses to analyze the next shot on approach to the ball by taking them off the hole and back on via a cart path, etc.

However, I do agree that estimating distance is an integral part of the skillset required to play golf.

[David_Elvins]

David,

You have to remember, I can only play as fast as the group in front of me.

I played OK today, drove it well, putted it well, but, I was just a bit off on my irons, I kept hitting them a little heavy, and came up about a club to a club and a half short on about six approach shots, so, after lunch, I decided to hit balls for about 45 minutes.

Then, I went and putted for about 20 minutes.

I used a new (old) putter today because I was lined up left of target and couldn't see it, so I went to one of those things that looks like a spider or sophisticated TV antenna, with good results.

My eyes have me lined up to the right on full shots and to the left on putts, so, it's a constant battle to get myself aligned propertly on every shot.
I seem to align myself well with my driver, only missing one fairway today, because I use the mowing patterns in the tee to align myself down the fairway.  Unfortunately, the mowing patterns in the fairway are of no use.  Although, I hit the best 2-iron I've hit in a decade on # 18 today.

I also had to respond to some TEPaul emails about PV.

Then, I had to do some grocery shopping, pick up the NY Times, WSJ, Star Ledger and NY Post.

As I pulled into my driveway, two fawns were ambling along and eating my neighbors shrubs, so I sat and watched them for awhile.
They sure are pretty looking.

Sounds like you had a very nice day, Patrick.  I just hope your young family didn't feel neglected  

You are a great (and amusing) arguer, Patrick.  However, if this was a court of law, a person with 25,327 posts on GolfClubAtlas arguning in favour of the preciousness of time wouldn't last 2 seconds.       "But, your honour, I must finish my round in 3 hours so I can go home and start another thread about how modern bunkers aren't deep enough."   

[Sean_A]

There is no question Pat is correct in saying golf takes longer to play than it did 30 years ago.  Someone mentioned before about taking longer and I notice my times aren't as quick as they used to be - not that I was ever a quick player.  Much of the difference is down to playing a longer, more rugged, tougher course than five years ago.  I am finding that getting a 4 ball round in 4 hours is a struggle with the average group of guys.  Some of that difference is playing with guests who inevitably take longer to play and this isn't surprising nor do I begrudge it - within reason.  However, I can't figure out where the extra time is lost and just chalk it down to old age.  All that said, I would hate to play even a 2 ball in less than 3 hours normally as I detest the feeling of being rushed around in an activity that is meant to be relaxing - for me anyway.  As time passes, especially on tougher courses I find playing in 2 balls is much more enjoyable. 

Ciao